05 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI can see that it's very convenient for you to label my simple challenges to you as a "witch hunt" and I understand why you want to do that.
Once again, if you have something to post on this topic, then post it, otherwise move on. You've hijacked enough threads with your witch-hunt.
And please stop telling lies about me. I have explained numerous times what I believe and my motivation for advocating that people follow the teachings of Jesus. The world would be a much better place if they di ...[text shortened]... I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-- Gandhi
It does sound to me as if much of your position is rooted in bad experiences rather than logic and reason from the way you talk. Eveyrthing is an attack for you , and that's a shame.
What I am saying here about you is very relevant to this thread because it goes to the very heart of the motivation behind the thread. What exactly are you trying to prove? Why have you posted this?
05 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterOnce again, if you have something to post on this topic, then post it, otherwise move on. You've hijacked enough threads with your witch-hunt.
I can see that it's very convenient for you to label my simple challenges to you as a "witch hunt" and I understand why you want to do that.
It does sound to me as if much of your position is rooted in bad experiences rather than logic and reason from the way you talk. Eveyrthing is an attack for you , and that's a shame.
What I am saying here ...[text shortened]... otivation behind the thread. What exactly are you trying to prove? Why have you posted this?
What's with this on-going character assassination? I can hardly make a post or start a thread without you making disparaging remarks about me to anyone and everyone. To top it off you make statements like "ToO is not up front about his motivation or what his personal beliefs actually are..." that are patently false. I have spoken both my beliefs and motivation numerous times. What you really mean is that I won't answer all your questions and so now you've been stalking me for months now. When does this stop?
05 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou have said nothing specifically and clearly about ...
Once again, if you have something to post on this topic, then post it, otherwise move on. You've hijacked enough threads with your witch-hunt.
What's with this on-going character assassination? I can hardly make a post or start a thread without you making disparaging remarks about me to anyone and everyone. To top it off you make statements like "ToO ...[text shortened]... all your questions and so now you've been stalking me for months now. When does this stop?
a) if you believe in an active God (atheist or theist)
b) if you believe that the sacrfice of Jesus is redundant or not.
c) if you believe you can attain righteousness without God's help.
d) if you live the life you exhort others to and have overcome sin 100%
You have spoken about your motivation for everyone to live a life of truth , love justice etc , and you have said that you believe that some of the teachings of Jesus are the truth (although you neglect many of them). The motivation I was questioning was regarding the posts attacking the morality of Christians. What do you hope to achieve by that?
I will stop challenging you to explore the teachings of Jesus in full when you stop manipulating Jesus for your own ends and attacking Christians without being prepared to say if you actually walk the walk.
05 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSince both groups go to different places for those terms, what are you
On another thread a poster brought up an interesting issue. As an atheist it's been his experience that he's more likely to adhere to a life of truth, love, humility, compassion, justice etc. than many Christians he knows.
I started thinking about it in these terms: If you took a group of atheists who profess belief in living a life of truth, love, hu ...[text shortened]... flecting on my experience, I'd have to pick the atheists. I don't think it'd even be close.
asking? As they see them or as you do, or as everyone should see
truth, love, humility, compassion, justice, etc? Than at what level do
we say they must live them to give them credit, the Mother Theresa
level, or something below that? Does one lose all the kudos they
should have gotten for one bad thing done at sometime or do they
get 5 good things for every bad? What standard are you using?
Kelly
05 Sep 08
Originally posted by KellyJayAre you making this harder than it is? This an purely subjective call based on one's own experience. I found it interesting to think about and thought others might also. For me, it was just a general "gut feel" based on atheists and Christians that I've known. It seemed to me that atheists who I thought would claim to believe in truth, love, humility, compassion, justice, etc. would be much more likely to have that belief as a deeply held conviction. On the other hand, it seem Christians who I thought would claim to believe in truth, love, humility, compassion, justice, etc. would be much less likely to have that belief as a deeply held conviction. So in my experience, the atheists would be much more likely to adhere to their stated beliefs.
Since both groups go to different places for those terms, what are you
asking? As they see them or as you do, or as everyone should see
truth, love, humility, compassion, justice, etc? Than at what level do
we say they must live them to give them credit, the Mother Theresa
level, or something below that? Does one lose all the kudos they
should have got ...[text shortened]... one at sometime or do they
get 5 good things for every bad? What standard are you using?
Kelly
06 Sep 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneMy guess would be that in a large sampling both groups would be roughly equal in virtue. People are people, and generally have the same capacity for virtue regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. Assuming these folks, atheist and Christian alike, are expecting themselves to adhere to truth, love, humility, compassion, justice, etc. to the best of their ability (i.e., in their own power; without divine aid of any sort).
On another thread a poster brought up an interesting issue. As an atheist it's been his experience that he's more likely to adhere to a life of truth, love, humility, compassion, justice etc. than many Christians he knows.
I started thinking about it in these terms: If you took a group of atheists who profess belief in living a life of truth, love, hu ...[text shortened]... flecting on my experience, I'd have to pick the atheists. I don't think it'd even be close.
However, if you were to compare the life of someone truly 'born of God' with the life of an atheist committed to virtue, there is no comparison. The quality of holiness genuinely born-again people possess is on a different level altogether. The life of virtue one is capable of in one's own power cannot hold a candle to what the power of God is able to produce in the heart of a born-again believer.
06 Sep 08
4 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasInteresting take.
My guess would be that in a large sampling both groups would be roughly equal in virtue. People are people, and generally have the same capacity for virtue regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. Assuming these folks, atheist and Christian alike, are expecting themselves to adhere to truth, love, humility, compassion, justice, etc. to the d a candle to what the power of God is able to produce in the heart of a born-again believer.
What do you mean by "truly born of God"?
At what point is a Christian "truly born of God"?
Roughly what percentage of Christians are "truly born of God"?
Can a non-Christian be "truly born of God"?
06 Sep 08
edit; "The life of virtue one is capable of in one's own power cannot hold a candle to what the power of God is able to produce in the heart of a born-again believer."
Unfortunately you understand not that religionism is dangerous. I 'm afraid that opinions like this very one that you expressed are backing up perfectly the primal impression of ToO.
So really, you appear to believe that Xenophanes, Zenon, Socrates and every other philosopher and human being before Jesus was not a man/ woman of virtue! And everybody else after Jesus is not a man/ woman of virtue if he/ she was or is not Christian. You separete the human beings to "believers" and "unbelievers" and you expect to be taken seriously?
BTW, what Christian dogma you think is the "right" one, as is well known that your religion is suffering of countless heresies?
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by sonhouseHi ever sunny S dude!
Amen brother!
Lets all pray for the success of atheism!
No need to pray. The "religion" follows too the path of the evolution (animism - polytheim - monotheism), and its next step is a "religion" not based on the concept of "god".
PS.: "god": what an invention!
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhy do you say "would claim" ? Is your "experience" based on what you imagine they "would" be like or "actually" like. The way you have written it sounds like you are using your imagination, but maybe it's just clumsy phrasing?
Are you making this harder than it is? This an purely subjective call based on one's own experience. I found it interesting to think about and thought others might also. For me, it was just a general "gut feel" based on atheists and Christians that I've known. It seemed to me that atheists who I thought would claim to believe in truth, love, humility, com ...[text shortened]... in my experience, the atheists would be much more likely to adhere to their stated beliefs.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhy are you asking these questions when the idea of being "born again" and all that it entails (eg repentance , receiving the Spirit , baptism etc ) all form a central part of Jesus's teachings?
Interesting take.
What do you mean by "truly born of God"?
At what point is a Christian "truly born of God"?
Roughly what percentage of Christians are "truly born of God"?
Can a non-Christian be "truly born of God"?J
Since you seem to feel you can take on all of Christendom concerning Jesus's teachings I thought you were the expert on them? So why the pretense? Just tell us all what it really means from your hotline to Jesus.
However , if you really don't know what these terms mean then maybe your authority regarding Jesus's teachings should be questioned. You have spent months challenging Christians from a position that suggests that you know exactly what Jesus's teachings are and Christians have lost their way due to St Paul and yet here you are asking something that you should really know better than Ephin.
Jesus did clearly teach about being born again so why don't you tell us all what he really meant so that we can start correcting 2000 years worth of tragic folly and really get down to following Jesus properly for once. It's a shame that you weren't around back then to build Jesus's church for him because something obviously went horribly wrong and he wasn't able to do it. His Father must have been asleep.
It could be a glorious new beginning , finally after 2000 years the true Christian church emerges from darkness and we all realise that Jesus actually meant "I will build my church on ToO in 2000 years time , but until then you will have to wait for the truth to be revealed".
(BTW- You expect Ephin. to answer simple direct questions when you will not yourself?)
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd you, KM? Our friend epiphenehas quoted that "The life of virtue one is capable of in one's own power cannot hold a candle to what the power of God is able to produce in the heart of a born-again believer.".
Why are you asking these questions when the idea of being "born again" and all that it entails (eg repentance , receiving the Spirit , baptism etc ) all form a central part of Jesus's teachings?
Since you seem to feel you can take on all of Christendom concerning Jesus's teachings I thought you were the expert on them? So why the pretense? Just tel ...[text shortened]... - You expect Ephin. to answer simple direct questions when you will not yourself?)
You agree with this opinion?
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhat do you mean by "truly born of God"?
Interesting take.
What do you mean by "truly born of God"?
At what point is a Christian "truly born of God"?
Roughly what percentage of Christians are "truly born of God"?
Can a non-Christian be "truly born of God"?
Born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). A new birth wrought by the Holy Spirit and signified by water baptism.
At what point is a Christian "truly born of God"?
The moment a person is quickened/regenerated/resurrected in his or her spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Roughly what percentage of Christians are "truly born of God"?
🙄
Can a non-Christian be "truly born of God"?
Absolutely not.