06 Sep 08
2 edits
Truly born of God means that a part of your being becomes God.
If no one else would say it this way, I will take the responsibility to say it this way.
To be born of God means that a part of your being becomes God in life and nature and expression, but not in the Godhead.
It is to have God born into your beint. It is to have a union between you and God come into being. It means to be joined to Christ Who is God / Man.
It means to become God in part of your own inner being.
www.regeneration.net
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by black beetleI would broadly agree , with a clarification though. I do not believe that real righteousness and goodness can come from anywhere other than God. I believe that there is a righteousness and goodness that is masquerading as goodness but is not recognised by right thinking people as such.
And you, KM? Our friend epiphenehas quoted that "The life of virtue one is capable of in one's own power cannot hold a candle to what the power of God is able to produce in the heart of a born-again believer.".
You agree with this opinion?
However, I do believe that God's righteousness can exist within the Atheist unwittingly and I also have no difficulty in believing that an Atheist could be more righteous than a Christian. God is working to put His goodness in all of us.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterThank you KM for your prompt reply.
I would broadly agree , with a clarification though. I do not believe that real righteousness and goodness can come from anywhere other than God. I believe that there is a righteousness and goodness that is masquerading as goodness but is not recognised by right thinking people as such.
However, I do believe that God's righteousness can exist withi ...[text shortened]... eist could be more righteous than a Christian. God is working to put His goodness in all of us.
And how do you define "real righteousness and goodness" ? And, do you really claim that one has to be Christian in order to be really righteous and good? Is this what you mean?
In adittion, your "God" , from whom derives the "real righteousnes and goodness" , is the same as Zeus, Athena, Allah, Siva etc., or somedy else, or "He" is a synthesis of all the "gods" toghether?
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd something else: kindly please let me know who are the "right thinking peope" in your opinion. Untill now I had the impression that the human beings we are capable of making rational and non rational thoughts (if there are other kinds of thought I expect you to inform me about them) ;
I would broadly agree , with a clarification though. I do not believe that real righteousness and goodness can come from anywhere other than God. I believe that there is a righteousness and goodness that is masquerading as goodness but is not recognised by right thinking people as such.
However, I do believe that God's righteousness can exist withi ...[text shortened]... eist could be more righteous than a Christian. God is working to put His goodness in all of us.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by black beetleRight thinking is about understanding love and compassion. It's about spiritual enlightenment. For example , Bush thinks he can bring peace to the world via his war machine , whereas , Ghandi said
And something else: kindly please let me know who are the "right thinking peope" in your opinion. Untill now I had the impression that the human beings we are capable of making rational and non rational thoughts (if there are other kinds of thought I expect you to inform me about them) ;
" There is no road to peace , peace is the road" So despite Bush calling himself a Christian I would say Ghandi is more of a right thinker and his philosophy is more in step with Christ's pacifism.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo anybody can be able for right thinking regardles his religion. You agree?
Right thinking is about understanding love and compassion. It's about spiritual enlightenment. For example , Bush thinks he can bring peace to the world via his war machine , whereas , Ghandi said
" There is no road to peace , peace is the road" So despite Bush calling himself a Christian I would say Ghandi is more of a right thinker and his philosophy is more in step with Christ's pacifism.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by black beetleAnd, do you really claim that one has to be Christian in order to be really righteous and good? Is this what you mean?
Thank you KM for your prompt reply.
And how do you define "real righteousness and goodness" ? And, do you really claim that one has to be Christian in order to be really righteous and good? Is this what you mean?
In adittion, your "God" , from whom derives the "real righteousnes and goodness" , is the same as Zeus, Athena, Allah, Siva etc., or somedy else, or "He" is a synthesis of all the "gods" toghether?
------------------beetle------------------------
Not at all. Ghandi was a guy I have an immense amount of time for who did not call himself a Christian.
An Atheist who is committed to the cause of love and justice is having his life influenced by the Spirit. He just doesn't realise it yet.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by black beetleAbsolutely. If they are humble enough to not claim self righteousness for themselves then , yes. The whole point of becoming a Christian is realising that you were always under grace anyway , you just didn't realise it. It's pride and judgement and self righteousness that is the enemy.
So anybody can be able for right thinking regardles his religion. You agree?
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWe agree. Then, in such a case, a humble atheist that checks constantly everything and avoids egoism and lives for the Love as I told you earlier when we were talking about religion here in this thread, well that one he must in fact be able allright to be "righteous and good", no matter if he is Christian or not (like, ie, Socrates or Ghandi) .
Absolutely. If they are humble enough to not claim self righteousness for themselves then , yes. The whole point of becoming a Christian is realising that you were always under grace anyway , you just didn't realise it. It's pride and judgement and self righteousness that is the enemy.
You agree with this argument?
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by black beetleSuch a person would indeed be plugging themselves into the source of Love itself (God). The would be what I would call an "unconscious" Christian unaware of the full dynamics of what was happening but at the same time allowing their heart to be open to God's grace.
We agree. Then, in such a case, a humble atheist that checks constantly everything and avoids egoism and lives for the Love as I told you earlier when we were talking about religion here in this thread, well that one he must in fact be able allright to be "righteous and good", no matter if he is Christian or not (like, ie, Socrates or Ghandi) .
You agree with this argument?
I guess they would have to be aware of there own potential for badness in order to be fully humble. Any thoughts of " he's a bad person I could never be like that in a million years" would not be a good start.
Another way of looking at it is this. There are no real Atheists. The world is full of Christians. Some of them are awake to this , some of them are not but still live by many of the principles and some of them have totally forgotten and live in oblivion.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWait. You said that "Such a person would indeed be plugging themselves into the source of Love itself (God)." But such a person is not Christian, as we defined the "good Christian" earlier.
Such a person would indeed be plugging themselves into the source of Love itself (God). The would be what I would call an "unconscious" Christian unaware of the full dynamics of what was happening but at the same time allowing their heart to be open to God's grace.
I guess they would have to be aware of there own potential for badness in order to b ...[text shortened]... ve by many of the principles and some of them have totally forgotten and live in oblivion.
Earlier epiphenehas said that a good Christian must be "Born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). A new birth wrought by the Holy Spirit and signified by water baptism." . This option is dismissed with Socrates.
Then epi quoted as essential "The moment a person is quickened/regenerated/resurrected in his or her spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit." This option is again dismissed for the persons like Socrates, because they had no idea with the triadic existence worshiped by the Christians.
Then epi assumed that "a non-Christian can absolutely not be "truly born of God"; nedles to add that you agre with epi in full, otherwise you would have point your opinion with another clarification.
As you see, an atheist can be a person of a REAL virtue, therefore your claim (and epi's) -that "The life of virtue one is capable of in one's own power cannot hold a candle to what the power of God is able to produce in the heart of a born-again believer." - is false.
Therefore, one has not to be a good Christian in order to plug hiself into the source of Lov (God).
06 Sep 08
And something more, my friend KM. You said that "Another way of looking at it is this. There are no real Atheists. The world is full of Christians. Some of them are awake to this , some of them are not but still live by many of the principles and some of them have totally forgotten and live in oblivion.".
I disagre with your argument. I am an atheist who happen to respect some of the principles of your religion. This fact cannot turn me into a Christian.
Also I estimate that I can describe and define my beliefs better than anybody else, and I assure you that I am not a Christian but an atheist.
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by black beetleI accept that you call yourself an Atheist and that you therefore believe that your goodness comes entirely from within you and not from God. Just as you believe that I am by implication praying into thin air like a deluded fool , so I also believe that you are standing under grace and that God is currently using you to further the cause of Love and Justice.
And something more, my friend KM. You said that "Another way of looking at it is this. There are no real Atheists. The world is full of Christians. Some of them are awake to this , some of them are not but still live by many of the principles and some of them have totally forgotten and live in oblivion.".
I disagre with your argument. I am an atheist ...[text shortened]... y beliefs better than anybody else, and I assure you that I am not a Christian but an atheist.
You presumably believe however much I think God's grace is with me helping me to be good that is not there and a figment of my imagination. Similarly , I also believe that God is there helping you to be good and to love others and that you just live under the illusion he isn't there and imagine your goodness can be accredited to you.
In this respect there is symmetry between both our views. For you every Christian is a lapsed Atheist ,yes?
06 Sep 08
Dear KM you quoted " Just as you believe that I am by implication praying into thin air like a deluded fool , so I also believe that you are standing under grace and that God is currently using you to further the cause of Love and Justice."
Well I think that you are praying to your god, however I don't believe to his existence. This does not make you a fool in my eyes. But it is wrong to try to hijack my beliefs insisting that I am under the grace of "your god" . Furthermore, If I am really under your gods' grace, then my virtue is real, however earlier you and epi you both claimed that this very virtue of mine has a lesser quality that your virtue, your "christian virtue" . This is discrimination my friend and I hope that you will see it.
About your second argument: in such a case "my god" is helping me, and not "your god".
In this respect there is not symmetry between boh of our views. For me every Christian is Christian and every atheist, atheist.-
06 Sep 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe atheists. They tend to be more intelligent.
On another thread a poster brought up an interesting issue. As an atheist it's been his experience that he's more likely to adhere to a life of truth, love, humility, compassion, justice etc. than many Christians he knows.
I started thinking about it in these terms: If you took a group of atheists who profess belief in living a life of truth, love, hu ...[text shortened]... flecting on my experience, I'd have to pick the atheists. I don't think it'd even be close.
http://tinyurl.com/5qarhl