Attrocities of 'Christianity', history of the Churches

Originally posted by galveston75
I just find all this word play and how you guys have become such masters of playing around with words to make it fit your beliefs, intertaining if nothing else.
It never ceases to amaze me how twisted the truth or non truth facts become so hazy and unclear and can make the unwise spiritual person doubt and eventually have no idea how deep they've been ...[text shortened]... me.
"If you are not saved you CANNOT have a saviour !!!!!" LOL, lol, lol. Thats a classic.

What's so funny?

It's a simple question which you cannot answer. Why is it when you are asked difficult questions you resort to scoffing and LOLing etc?

How can you call someone your "saviour" when you are not yet saved? It's genuine question which any non-believer could ask you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
but you are saved already, no matter what you do, you are saved, is that not the case?

No that is not the case. If you are saved by Christ you are saved indeed. Everything else comes after the fact.

How can you call someone your saviour when you are not yet saved?

Originally posted by divegeester
What's so funny?

It's a simple question which you cannot answer. Why is it when you are asked difficult questions you resort to scoffing and LOLing etc?

How can you call someone your [b]"saviour" when you are not yet saved? It's genuine question which any non-believer could ask you.[/b]

1 question and 1 question only. You say we don't answer and yet you still have not simply explained what this scripture means.

Matthew 10:22 (New Living Translation)
22 And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.

Being saved is only obtained when we get to the end. It clearly and without any confusion says in black and white the END is when one can obtain salvation.

Now without getting off this simple scripture and twisting anything, answer only this one question.

((((((( How can you be saved now when this scripture says the END is the only time when one might be saved? ))))))

Originally posted by galveston75
1 question and 1 question only. You say we don't answer and yet you still have not simply explained what this scripture means.

Matthew 10:22 (New Living Translation)
22 And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.

Being saved is only obtained when we get to the end. It clearly an ...[text shortened]... be saved now when this scripture says the END is the only time when one might be saved? ))))))

It doesn't say that you can ONLY be saved at the end though does it Galv - read it! You just see what you are told to see.

The whole concept of the Gospel is about the COMPLETED FINISHED work of Christ at Calvary and the JWs insist on taking one scripture and making a completely erroneous doctrine out of it.

One scripture vs. the whole concept of salvation can you not see how blinded you are by JW doctrine?

You cannot have a saviour if you are not saved - this is FACT it is undeniable.

Originally posted by divegeester
No that is not the case. If you are saved by Christ you are saved indeed. Everything else comes after the fact.

How can you call someone your saviour when you are not yet saved?

what? personal salvation is emphasised by those that are interested in themselves,
Christianity always puts emphasis on doing things for other people. You are saved
and everything else comes after that, just about sums it up, thanks for declaring
intense self interest and then thinking about others afterwards, i could not have
demonstrated it better myself.

Originally posted by divegeester
It doesn't say that you can ONLY be saved at the end though does it Galv - read it! You just see what you are told to see.

The whole concept of the Gospel is about the COMPLETED FINISHED work of Christ at Calvary and the JWs insist on taking one scripture and making a completely erroneous doctrine out of it.

One scripture vs. the whole concept of ...[text shortened]... JW doctrine?

You cannot have a saviour if you are not saved - this is FACT it is undeniable.

Lol..Here goes the word play again. I knew you'd do that, as usual. Amazing how you can read a scripture in your own Bible and with a very simple statement and wording "UNTIL THE END" and in reality say: "That's not true at all. There are other times you can be saved!!"
So if that scripture is wrong then so too is the whole Bible I guess according to your statement.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Christianity always puts emphasis on doing things for other people.

Emphasising why the JWs get it so wrong. Christianity is primarily about what Christ has done for us not what we do for ourselves of other people. The Gospel and in fact the whole point of creation is for God to redeem a people for himself and reconcile himself to the world - there is NOTHING we can do to help him.

Works are about obedience not about earning salvation.

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol..Here goes the word play again. I knew you'd do that, as usual. Amazing how you can read a scripture in your own Bible and with a very simple statement and wording "UNTIL THE END" and in reality say: "That's not true at all. There are other times you can be saved!!"
So if that scripture is wrong then so too is the whole Bible I guess according to your statement.

The scripture is not wrong. The JW organisation's extrapolation of it into a false doctrine is wrong.

One scripture, one verse is a dangerous way to create dogma.

Originally posted by divegeester
The scripture is not wrong. The JW organisation's extrapolation of it into a false doctrine is wrong.

One scripture, one verse is a dangerous way to create dogma.

WE don't ever settle on one verse in the Bible to put our beliefs on. We use the whole and complete Bible unlike ones who teach the trinity for example that pick the 10 or so scriptures that they fudge and twist the meanings of those scriptures and hazely try to make it fit that pagan belief.

So again that scripture is wrong on being saved at the end only???????????????

Originally posted by divegeester
Emphasising why the JWs get it so wrong. Christianity is primarily about what Christ has done for us not what we do for ourselves of other people. The Gospel and in fact the whole point of creation is for God to redeem a people for himself and reconcile himself to the world - there is NOTHING we can do to help him.

Works are about obedience not about earning salvation.

Oh so now it becomes crystal clear why you argue against going door to door as Jesus commaned us to do to in helping others learn about the Bible and who Jesus and his Father Jehovah really are and what the future holds for all humans.
We don't really have too because it doesn't really matter as we can't do anything for anyone. Right?
What a complete and unloving copout!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by divegeester
Emphasising why the JWs get it so wrong. Christianity is primarily about what Christ has done for us not what we do for ourselves of other people. The Gospel and in fact the whole point of creation is for God to redeem a people for himself and reconcile himself to the world - there is NOTHING we can do to help him.

Works are about obedience not about earning salvation.

whut? whut? could i be dreaming? feels bum, nope vital signs are there.

(John 13:34-35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one
another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.  By this all
will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

In what way did the Christ love the disciples? through the greatest act of self
sacrifice, ever, by giving his life on their and the worlds behalf.

(Mark 10:45) . . .For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to
minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”


Indeed Christ even demonstrated this by washing the feet of the disciples, before
his death.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nope, being a Christian is a responsibility, you are an ambassador substituting for
Christ for goodness sake, simply saying that i have been saved by Gods grace is not
enough, its a cop out in fact, a myth perpetrated by armchair Christians unwilling to do
anything to help others, indeed, the whole 'I am saved', is an utter and complete piece
...[text shortened]... tain one says he has faith
but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

Not denying Christains have responsiblities, nor that we are ambassadors, that
being said, simply following the teachings of Jesus is NOT enough. An Atheist
can follow the teachings of Jesus, a mass murderer can follow Jesus' teaching
but fail in murdering part, you can ignore Jesus or God for that matter and
follow Jesus' teachings. Point being you need to start off in a relationship with
God in Christ, if you do not have a relationship with God in Christ you will hear
the words, "I never knew you" at judgment. I've not once denied we will do
good works in Christ, you must have a relationship with God to know Him, you
must have the Spirit of God to be able to follow Him and learn of Him.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
but you are saved already, no matter what you do, you are saved, is that not the case?

Being saved is NOT the goal, getting right with God for fellowship is, so that
we may know Him and learn about Him.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not denying Christains have responsiblities, nor that we are ambassadors, that
being said, simply following the teachings of Jesus is NOT enough. An Atheist
can follow the teachings of Jesus, a mass murderer can follow Jesus' teaching
but fail in murdering part, you can ignore Jesus or God for that matter and
follow Jesus' teachings. Point being you nee ...[text shortened]... now Him, you
must have the Spirit of God to be able to follow Him and learn of Him.
Kelly

Kelly Jay, Well ... off the top of my head I can say for certainty that an atheist cannot follow the teachings of Christ. Christ said:

Mark_12:30 ...thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Can an atheist love a God which to him does not exist?

As for the 'I never knew you' comment, lets look at the whole passage :

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

First look at who gets salvation in verse 21... its "..he that doeth the will of my Father and again in verse 24 .. its "..whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them.

And who is it that Christ says "I never knew you" to? Its those who claim to prophesy and cast out devils. Clearly those people did not understand what were the good works that were required of them.

Examples of the good works are clearly stated :

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Go feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the sick and fatherless and the widows etc etc.

Accordiing to CHrist faith, baptism and good works is what is required for salvation and your relationship with Christ starts by following his commandments.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you have FAILED to answer the question,

here it is for a fifth time,

If you are saved already why would there be need of endurance as the Christ evidently stated.

The answer doesn't fit your theology robbie.

Enduring to the end is applicable to those who are here in this world at the end when the "son of perdition", "that man of sin" is revealed. Whoever is alive at that time and claims to be a believer will have to "endure" to the end. And will most likely have their head chopped off or starve to death because they won't be able to buy or sell anything including food without the mark of the beast.

Answer this: Can you DO something to be saved? Do you believe there is something you must DO to be saved?

A simple yes or no please.


By the way. You missed my post second from the last on page twelve.