Attrocities of 'Christianity', history of the Churches

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why then are their entire hospitals in America dedicated to bloodless surgery, which do organ transplants if blood is needed? do tell.

That may be true. Could you give me an example? The point still is irrelevant, though. Your organisation teaches that it is morally superior for this child to die than to receive a blood transfusion, whether or not alternatives are available. That's evil.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it relevant because i dont need to justify the way we bring up our children to you, that's
why its relevant, for you have not the slightest inkling on how children should be
brought up, having never experienced it yourself. Please tell me how i should bring
my children up, what advice can you offer me as a parent?

Where exactly has Conrau told you how to bring up your kids?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it relevant because i dont need to justify the way we bring up our children to you, that's
why its relevant, for you have not the slightest inkling on how children should be
brought up, having never experienced it yourself. Please tell me how i should bring
my children up, what advice can you offer me as a parent?

Well, I am not telling you how to bring up your children, except for the fact that I think the JW religion is evil and no child should be exposed to it. But my basic point was simply that you're not very special if your child is polite and can enjoy a sausage sizzle.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I don't have any children. I don't see why this is relevant though. I have enough experience in life to know that many people enjoy sausage sizzles and have polite children.

Combining faith and science, Portland hospital system finds a way to serve
Jehovah's Witnesses

Published: Wednesday, April 13, 2011, 9:07 PM Updated: Thursday, April 14,
2011, 7:02 AM

Tom Hallman Jr., The Oregonian By Tom Hallman Jr.,

Nakamura/The OregonianCelina Ortiz watches as her daughter, 13-year-old Tania,
examines a model of a spine with metal supports similar to the type she received
recently during a 'bloodless surgery' at Legacy Emanuel Medical Center in North
Portland. The type of surgery was important to the Ortiz family because they are
Jehovah's Witnesses.

Severe scoliosis created such curvature in 13-year-old Tania Ortiz's spine that she
hunched over, putting pressure on her heart and lungs. Although the problem could
be corrected by implanting two metal rods along her spine, surgeons throughout
Kansas refused because of her family's religious beliefs.

Devout Jehovah's Witnesses, such as the Ortiz family, interpret a Bible passage as a
commandment to abstain from blood transfusions, or even storing the patient's own
blood in advance so it could later be used.

Knowing those restrictions -- and believing that transfusions would likely be needed
during the long and complicated surgery -- doctors would not operate. So in late
2010, the family reached out to Witness elders in their hometown of Olathe, a city
about 20 miles southwest of Kansas City.

"We asked God for help," said her father, Santiago Ortiz. "We prayed for good
hands."

The answer came when officials at the Jehovah's Witness headquarters in New York
City told them to go to Portland's Legacy Health, which 20 years ago started the
nation's first large-scale, hospitalwide bloodless surgery program.

Hospitals in other cities around the country have started similar programs. But
Legacy's Bloodless Surgery and Medicine Program is so well known and established
that thousands of Witnesses come to Portland each year from across the country as
well as from overseas.

What the program does is manage blood loss -- before and during an operation. The
techniques and procedures are covered by the patient's insurance. And because of
lower costs, infection rates and shorter hospital stays, the hospital and patient save
money.

The process begins weeks before surgery when doctors and nurses work with the
patient, devising medical treatments to reduce blood loss during surgery. During the
operation a series of machines recover the blood from the surgical wound, filter it
and reclaim blood cells. The blood is then returned to the patient's body in a closed-
circuit system, a process that does not violate Witnesses' beliefs.

Even in trauma, the doctors and nurses who are part of the program honor those
beliefs.

"I'm not a Witness," said Dr. David Farris, an anesthesiologist and co-director of the
Legacy program. "I'm a recovering Catholic. But when I applied for this position, I
promised I would do anything for a patient's right to self-determination. I stood by
the bedside of a Witness who was slowly dying from trauma injuries. His adult son,
who was not a Witness, wanted me to give him blood. I didn't and the man died.
Sadly, we have had patients die."

Because of this commitment -- both for adults and children -- the Legacy program
has attracted the support of the nation's Witness community.

In 2008 and 2009 the system treated 4,000 Witnesses annually,said Mary Ann
Knauss,the program's co-coordinator. Last year, she said, the number of Witnesses
jumped to 8,000.

"We were the nation's first hospital to cover all surgical specialties with bloodless
surgery," she said. "We do everything from open-heart to neurosurgery."

Dr. Adam Barmada, pediatric orthopedic surgeon, shows before and after surgery
X-rays of Tania Ortiz's body. Barmada recently operated on 13-year-old Tania Ortiz
from Kansas to treat her scoliosis, whose family could not get any doctors to do
surgery without transfusion.

Earlier this year, Tania Ortiz underwent a successful nine-hour surgery at The
Children's Hospital at Legacy Emanuel and soon rejoined her seventh-grade class.
Not only was she able to straighten up – gaining 2 inches in height -- but the
pressure on her heart and lungs was relieved.

"My daughter could not run or play before this surgery," her father said. "The
doctors changed her life. They also understood our beliefs and knew that we
wanted the best for our child."

Doug Menner, associate director of hospital information services at the Jehovah's
Witnesses national office, said his office receives monthly calls from community
members.

"For the medical staff, it's more than just employing techniques," he said. "It's about
a mindset."

Farris said doctors devised ways to use existing medical equipment to create a
system that would work for the Witness community.

"None of the pieces are special unto themselves," he said. "But by pulling them
together, we created something that adapts to their beliefs. It's about being
respectful of those beliefs."

Knauss said the 40 surgeons who participate in the program are committed to
practicing first-rate medicine while supporting Witness beliefs.

Patients, doctors and hospitals around the world are becoming increasingly drawn to
using bloodless surgery because of health benefits.

The cost of one unit of blood, including the overhead, is about $1,000," said Melissa
Smith, a co-coordinator of the program, a registered nurse and a Witness. "
Medicare will not pay for the first two units, nor will most insurance companies. So
the hospital eats those costs.

"If a person has open heart surgery, the length of stay in the hospital is seven to 10
days," she said. "A Jehovah's Witness having the exact same surgery with bloodless
surgery will stay in the hospital five to seven days. The minimal cost for day in the
hospital is $2,000."

Other area hospitals employ people who work with the Witness community, but
Legacy says it has the only system-wide dedicated program. And it grew out of an
early 1990s lunch between program founder and co-director Dr. David
Rosencrantz, who is Jewish, and John Hanna, a friend of his who is a Witness.

"He told me that he wished there was a place in Portland where their people could
be treated," said Rosencrantz, a urologist. "It made sense. Why not?"

Rosencrantz heard about a Chicago hospital experimenting with bloodless surgery
on a small scale. He visited, talked with doctors and was convinced he could make
it happen in Portland.

"I thought it would be a slam dunk," he said. Instead, "It took me two years. To do
this right I needed to get doctors in all specialties to commit to it. They not only had
to have medical expertise as a surgeon, but they needed an inner courage and
confidence in themselves."

After getting 40 surgeons signed on, the program was launched and the Witness
community was notified. He said that the doctors and nurses participating in the
program come from all faiths. Some, he said, are atheists.

"We're not here to judge what someone believes," he said. "This program succeeds
because of the hearts and souls of the nurses and doctors involved."

The first case came one Friday evening when Legacy officials were called by a
Witness elder who said a patient in a Washington hospital needed help. She was
pregnant and her placenta had torn away.

"She was bleeding out," said Knauss. "Doctors thought if she continued to bleed, her
husband would consent to a transfusion. He wouldn't. She came to us bleeding. Her
red blood cell count was 2.9. It should have been 15. She was almost gone. The
baby had died, and her husband was told that his wife had a 99 percent chance of
dying."

Surgeons and nurses in the bloodless program got to work. The woman was
discharged, alive and well, eight days later.

Hanna said that the program shows that people of all faiths and beliefs share a
common bond -- concern about their fellow man.


"The Witness community is also gratified that there's been so much additional
research into bloodless surgery," he said. "Ultimately, all patients benefit."

Smith, the program's co-coordinator who is also a registered nurse and a Witness,
straddles both worlds.

"The trust between the Witness community and the people involved in this program
is amazing," she said. "The Witness community knows the nurses and doctors will
go to the wall to respect and honor Witness beliefs. The program works because of
that trust."

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Combining faith and science, Portland hospital system finds a way to serve
Jehovah's Witnesses

Published: Wednesday, April 13, 2011, 9:07 PM Updated: Thursday, April 14,
2011, 7:02 AM

Tom Hallman Jr., The Oregonian By Tom Hallman Jr.,

Nakamura/The OregonianCelina Ortiz watches as her daughter, 13-year-old Tania,
examines a model t trust."

What the program does is manage blood loss -- before and during an operation. The
techniques and procedures are covered by the patient's insurance.

Ok. But the issue here is not blood loss. There are many cases when people need blood, not because of blood loss during surgery, but because their own body is not producing enough blood cells (as in Leukemia). This hospital does not appear to offer any alternative treatment for those cases. Basically, you have just brought up something irrelevant. Perhaps if you had some experience of education...

How sick is this:

I stood by
the bedside of a Witness who was slowly dying from trauma injuries. His adult son,
who was not a Witness, wanted me to give him blood. I didn't and the man died.
Sadly, we have had patients die.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
can i ask you if its not too personal, if it is pm me, but how do you reconcile these
atrocities with your Christian faith, for to be sure they were perpetrated by Christians
against innocent people. I may also like to say that it has been a life ambition to meet
a native American, ever since i was a kid i watched grizzly Adams and i would lov ...[text shortened]... ctive. They have even some publications
in the language. Maybe the G-man would know better.

I find your question very insulting! You are trying to imply that all the crimes
done by those that claim the name of Christ some how means all of Christianity
is guilty? There are crimes done in the name of everything under the sun, do
those that commit those crimes stand guilty or does the name they do them
under stand guilty? If you say the name they did them under is guilty and you
want to claim your not a Christian I can understand that, but if you want to
tell everyone that you are not like other Christians because your group was not
part of those crimes, than any crimes done by those that claim the name of
your group makes you as guilty as they are, since that will be the standard
of guilt you set.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
'By their fruits you will know those men', - Jesus Christ.

Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious
leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the
colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of
dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." *

Massacre ...[text shortened]... locaust, Oxford University Press 1992

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Man the accuser must be proud of you.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I find your question very insulting! You are trying to imply that all the crimes
done by those that claim the name of Christ some how means all of Christianity
is guilty? There are crimes done in the name of everything under the sun, do
those that commit those crimes stand guilty or does the name they do them
under stand guilty? If you say the name they ...[text shortened]... group makes you as guilty as they are, since that will be the standard
of guilt you set.
Kelly

worse...he implies that because people have a connection to the church that everyone in that church is guilty of the crime. He cannot concieve that people often act on their own without approval of the church. JW's do nothing without approval so its easy to understand his mistake.

Originally posted by Doward
worse...he implies that because people have a connection to the church that everyone in that church is guilty of the crime. He cannot concieve that people often act on their own without approval of the church. JW's do nothing without approval so its easy to understand his mistake.

Well the problem here with your statement is...Oh darn. I have to wait on approval from the Watchtower Society before I continue this post. Hang on a minute, Sorry!!!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
'By their fruits you will know those men', - Jesus Christ.

Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious
leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the
colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of
dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." *

Massacre locaust, Oxford University Press 1992

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

How about we look at men of God in the Bible. Moses murdered an Egyptian. King David committed adultery and then murdered her husband. Peter tried to murder a Roman who came to take Christ to the cross and when Christ was taken to the cross lied three times saying he never knew the man. Not only was he a liar, he betrayed his Master not once, but three times!!

If you ask me they are just a bunch of sinners.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]can i ask you if its not too personal, if it is pm me, but how do you reconcile these
atrocities with your Christian faith,

Maybe we should ask this of Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Zion's Watch Tower Traci Society.

In his early days, he temporarily lost faith in the God of the Bible as he began investigating other philosophies such as Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism. However, he later returned to the God of the Bible.

How about his marriage? His wife filed for divorce on the grounds of mental cruelty. She claimed that he forced celebacy and frequent cold, indifferent treatment. In addition, Mrs. Russells attormey alleged that he had engaged in "improper intimacy" with Rose Ball, by then a 25 year old woman of his acquantance.

He seems to have also been a rather shrewd businessman as he sold "Millennial Duwn" books. He collected the funds and then cheated one of them out of financial gains, and then he issued thousands of "Millennial Duwn" books under a female pseudonym.

On March 22, 1911, The Brooklyn Daily Eagle published articles accusing Russell of gaining profit from a strain of wheat named "Miracle Wheat" by its alleged discoverer K.B. Stoner of Fincastle, Virginia. Many critics insisted that Russell had deceived and defrauded many by selling the supposedly advanced strain of wheat for $60 per basket, far above the average cost of wheat at the time. Throughout 1912 and 1913, the Eagle continued to report on Russell's alleged fraud. Russell sued the Eagle for liable and lost.


Verdict: Sinner. He seems to have been a liar, a theif, and adulterer. Follow him and others like him if you wish, but I suggest you stick to the teachings of the only man who never sinned.


In fact, everyone on these forms is a sinner......excepting perhaps TOO.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well the problem here with your statement is...Oh darn. I have to wait on approval from the Watchtower Society before I continue this post. Hang on a minute, Sorry!!!

Do you have a problem with robbie's question?
Kelly

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]What the program does is manage blood loss -- before and during an operation. The
techniques and procedures are covered by the patient's insurance.

Ok. But the issue here is not blood loss. There are many cases when people need blood, not because of blood loss during surgery, but because their own body is not producing enough blood cells (as in ...[text shortened]... ted me to give him blood. I didn't and the man died.
Sadly, we have had patients die.[/quote][/b]

start your own thread on our right to claim self determination. This thread is about
atrocities committed by Christian upon others, not those that wish to exercise the right
of what is done to their own bodies. THis instance palls into insignificance on the
sickometer when we consider has transpired in Rwanda, shall we go there next?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I find your question very insulting! You are trying to imply that all the crimes
done by those that claim the name of Christ some how means all of Christianity
is guilty? There are crimes done in the name of everything under the sun, do
those that commit those crimes stand guilty or does the name they do them
under stand guilty? If you say the name they ...[text shortened]... group makes you as guilty as they are, since that will be the standard
of guilt you set.
Kelly

whether you find it insulting is neither here nor there , its not a thread about pandering
to your taste is it? That there are crimes also is neither here nor there for those who
profess to be Christian have a moral obligation to live up to the example of Christ,
indeed, all we are doing is applying Christ's own words, by their fruits you will know
those men, you can hardly object if it is the acts of Christians we are looking at.