15 Jan 06
Originally posted by STANGI do not believe it to be ambiguous. I believe it to be clear.
Which one is right ?
As I've said before, if a loving god were to exist, why would his word be so ambiguous when there's a risk of us spending an eternity in hell ?
You yourself have demonstrated how one can manipulate the texts to promote an unfounded position (i.e. your one line quotes to sustain your question regarding Allahs instruction to kill infidels). It is no grand thing to take excerpts of a text and display them out of context to promote a position the text does not claim. As I have demonstrated before, I can do the same thing with other famous texts such as the delaration of independence or Walden. If I take but simple 'one liners' as the basis for my position, I could utilize Mein Kampf to assert that Hitler was a quiet, peace loving man full of acceptance of others and a desire to foster arts and entertainment.
Quite frankly, you hit the nail on the head. A loving God would not be ambiguous in his instructions. He would be very clear. It is the position of myself, and a fair number of other Christians upon this site, that he has been (and is) very clear about the matter.
In regards to "which one is right", I hate to declare that what I believe is the "universal truth" as it is arrogant to say such a thing in a public forum. However, since you have asked and expect a definitive answer direct to your question, I will tell you that I am of firm belief that baptism (in the physical sense, i.e. the ritual with water) is not required for salvation.
To expound, I am not of the belief that any action a person takes can either damn or save them in the eyes of God. It is my belief that God is the perfect examiner, and the criteria of his examination is the fiber of that persons being as they themselves have molded it, with the only item needing to be found a faith in his promise of salvation via the Christ. Again, this is my belief and I wish to reinerate that I do not state this to take issue with people of different beliefs, but only to explain my own.
Best Regards,
Omnislash
16 Jan 06
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Let STANG think baptism is crap. Otherwise, at some point in his life he might -- in a weak moment I suppose -- outgrow the need to start a conversation with a closed mind, learn something, convert -- and then how much fun would heaven really be if he's there arguing with us about how why angels don't have wings or bodies, and how that's somehow George Bush's fault?????
16 Jan 06
Originally posted by OmnislashTHEN THIS IS TRUE ???
I do not believe it to be ambiguous. I believe it to be clear.
Killed by God, in one day, for premarital sex (1 Corinthians 10:8)
23,000 dead
Killed, at God's behest, for not giving God his due (Exodus 32:26-28)
3,000 dead
Killed for being counted by David (1 Chronicles 21:1-14)
70,000 dead
Killed by God for questioning Moses and Aaron (Numbers 16:35)
14,950 dead
Killed by God, in a plague, for whoring around (Numbers 25:1-9)
24,000 dead
Delivered by God to be killed by Israelites (Judges 3:28-29)
30,000 dead
Killed by God for engaging in homosexual acts (Genesis 19:24-25)
Everything dead in 2 cities
Killed by God after their king made fun of him (Isaiah 37:1-36)
185,000 dead
God threatened to kill for abandoning him (Amos 5:1-3)
90 percent of Israel
Killed by God when he was particularly disgusted (Genesis 6:5-7:22)
Everything dead on earth – except a few on an ark
Comply or spend eternity in hell (Rom. 6:23, Rev. 19:ll-15; 20:8)
16 Jan 06
Originally posted by STANGNo, I do not believe in those things. If you will now, answer my
Do you believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc ?
question to you, do you think it will be the things you do not know
or understand that will put in bad stead, or those things that you
do understand that will?
Kelly
17 Jan 06
Originally posted by STANGYou insult my cordial gesture by going completely off topic sir.
THEN THIS IS TRUE ???
Killed by God, in one day, for premarital sex (1 Corinthians 10:8)
23,000 dead
Killed, at God's behest, for not giving God his due (Exodus 32:26-28)
3,000 dead
Killed for being counted by David (1 Chronicles 21:1-14)
70,000 dead
Killed by God for questioning Moses and Aaron (Numbers 16:35)
14,950 dead
Killed by ...[text shortened]... – except a few on an ark
Comply or spend eternity in hell (Rom. 6:23, Rev. 19:ll-15; 20:8)
The title of this thread is "Baptism is crap!". Your opening statement was "If God allows us free will then why would baptism make a difference ?". Must I remind you what the topic is in this thread you yourself created? We are discussing baptism. Currently, your inquiry is focused upon the purportedly 'ambiguous' statements by God. I have addressed this cordially, going so far as to express my own personal faith to you. I feel you must not appreciate my efforts as you think so little of my statement as to ignore its composition.
If you wish to discuss these items I would be happy to do so, if you can show an ability to stay on topic by addressing what I have written. Otherwise, I will thank you kindly to refrain from giving the pretense of civil discussion.
17 Jan 06
2 edits
You stated "I do not believe it (the bible) to be ambiguous. I believe it to be clear". I replied with a comment that my quotes of sections from the bible must also be true - that god has repeatedly killed. Actually, I phrased that as a question that you avoid answering by being critical of me.
17 Jan 06
Originally posted by STANGI understand your comment just fine. It remains, none the less, rather off topic. Your initial inquiry was in regards to baptism, and as such I have operated upon that notion. I am intested in pursuing that notion. I would also be interested in discussing these quotes you have posted, but not unless you can demonstrate to me that you are both capable and willing to remain on topic and discuss the matter.
You stated "I do not believe it (the bible) to be ambiguous. I believe it to be clear". I replied with a comment that my quotes of sections from the bible must also be true - that god has repeatedly killed. Actually, I phrased that as a question that you avoid answering by being critical of me.
Again, the topic (which you chose) is baptism. My post is in direct answer to baptism, and baptism is the topic I am intested in discussing in this thread. You made the claim that baptism is crap. I disagreed with that assertion, as well as the assertion that the Bible is ambiguous about the matter. I have stated what I believe, specifically in relation to salvation as you expressed interest in the correlation of the two.
Your post of 'one liners' have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. If you wish to discuss that God is callous and cruel, we could discuss that....in another thread. If you wish to discuss God moral grounds for 'killing great numbers of people' in the Bible, we could discuss that.....in another thread. However, I will not participate in such a discussion with you untill you demonstrate an ability and willingness to converse upon a simple subject (like baptsim) and remain on topic.
Quite simply, I will not be lead on some wild goose chase, explaining random portions of the Bible, with absolutely no relevant topic at hand. If you wish to reply in regards to baptism, that is good and wel, and we can go from there. Otherwise, we have nothing further to discuss in this thread.