Being righteous, doing God's righteousness works.

@medullah said
@Rajk999

An we have a definition of damnation please, just so that we are clear?

"The natural state of mankind" -- according to KellyJay.

🙄

@kellyjay said
Good works are good works, and the motivation behind them can be good or bad, we are quite capable of doing good works, and evil ones. The point is righteousness, our good works do not make us righteous, still we are to do them as they are what we should be doing, as it has been said here more than a few times none of us are perfect, while being perfect is what is required! ...[text shortened]... n for how bad it is, I'm not over-analyzing this, I'm pointing out the seriousness of our condition.

What nonsense!! Good works are not good works if the motivation is had. It then becomes 'works' or 'evil works'. All good works are rewarded by God. You really need to get out of that church and read your bible. Jesus explained this in detail

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6:1-4 KJV)

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, (Matthew 23:5 KJV)

Good works is rewarded by God.
If it is done to be seen of men it is not.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Why are you ignoring Isaiah 65:1-7 that describes the false righteousness of the people, which helps clarify when 'righteous deeds' are like filthy rags. God is clearly angry at the pseudo-righteous deeds of religious hypocrites. He is not telling His people that righteous living is impossible or beyond them.

Why are you taking 'filthy rags' out of context and misapplying?

False righteousness? Jesus clearly said only God is good, exactly who has a righteousness like God's outside of God? The people who justify themselves by their deeds do not have a pseudo-righteousness, they are no different than the guy Jesus told us about who thanked God he wasn't like others and then preceded to tell God of all the wonderful things he did, or no different than the people who Jesus talked about on judgment day who told Jesus of all the wonderful things they did in Jesus' name.

I'm not the one ignoring what the scripture is teaching, how none do good, not one, that we are all condemned who are not putting our faith in Jesus Christ. We all have our own righteousness, the trouble outside of God acting on our behalf our's is filthy.

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

@moonbus said
"The natural state of mankind" -- according to KellyJay.

🙄

For real .. did not think about that. We are all damned according to his church theology. Imagine if we had a Christ that spoke like him. That would be some very discouraging sermons to hear.

@rajk999 said
What nonsense!! Good works are not good works if the motivation is had. It then becomes 'works' or 'evil works'. All good works are rewarded by God. You really need to get out of that church and read your bible. Jesus explained this in detail

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in he ...[text shortened]... 5 KJV)

Good works is rewarded by God.
If it is done to be seen of men it is not.

Our motivation is why we do the things we do, simply put, a "good work," is by definition good work, but we are not good. A hypocrite is someone who does something and condemns others for the very thing they do, as you do when you condemn others for taking the scriptures seriously as the revealed word of God, then turn around and justify and condemn others using scripture. You go on and on about good works, and fail to acknowledge that our evil deeds are also seen and we are also held accountable for them, you gloss over our sinful nature before God while trumping human efforts in our good works to get right with God. You ignore the scriptures that tell us we are saved by grace through faith and not by works continually, twisting the text to suit your blasphemous doctrine.

@rajk999 said
For real .. did not think about that. We are all damned according to his church theology. Imagine if we had a Christ that spoke like him. That would be some very discouraging sermons to hear.

The good news is Jesus came to save us, you would have people think they are fine before God when they are not, deceiver.

@medullah said
My observations would lead me to conclude that the average Christian doesn’t know what it’s all about. You and I may differ, but we can both defend our positions (and I think that should be extended to Kelly). If the average Christian had to defend their position I doubt that they could.

With many I suspect “Christian” is something that you put on you passport.

I'm not sure who you mean by "the average Christian", but certainly a lot of Christians haven't gotten the essential message of Jesus's teachings. Organised religion, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, rote following of rules and rigid adherence to fixed rituals, was exactly what Jesus preached against in his time. Now look around and tell me which sorts of Christians are the modern equivalents of the Sadducees and the Pharisees? Those are the sorts of Christians Jesus would rail against if he were to re-appear today.

And who would be the modern equivalent of the good Samaritan? (Remembering that the Hebrews looked upon the Samaritans at that time as anything but friendly neighbors.)

@moonbus said
I'm not sure who you mean by "the average Christian", but certainly a lot of Christians haven't gotten the essential message of Jesus's teachings. Organised religion, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, rote following of rules and rigid adherence to fixed rituals, was exactly what Jesus preached against in his time. Now look around and tell me which sorts of Christians are the m ...[text shortened]... bering that the Hebrews looked upon the Samaritans at that time as anything but friendly neighbors.)

Jesus was crystal clear how the judgment day scenario will play out, and it applies to ALL people. Those who do good works [clearly defined in Matt 25] are in. All others are out. Nothing said about religion, faith etc. Jesus died for all and all are justified [Romans 5:18]. Good Samaritans are all over the world and they will all be in the Kingdom of God. So are evil people, they are all over and will all be cast out.

Some religious groups like to think and they also preach, that they are superior. Eg some Catholics, the JWs promote the idea that they only have the truth, the SDAs do something similar. Paul said : For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Galatians 5:14 KJV) The single most important thing in the whole bible is to show charitable love for those around you.

Even those with no law [the law of Christ or Moses] as Paul states in Romans 2, they will still be judged according to the law by which they live, their conscience being their guide.

@moonbus said
It wouldn't be the first time the Jews ignored one of their own prophets.

😆


If the Jews ever manage to learn to forgive and live at peace with their neighbours, maybe one could say that they have finally had their "come to Jesus" moment. But I daresay, they won't be learning it from the likes of KellyJay's sort of Christianity.

😵

No, they won't, nor from any Christians. Not given that I feel that those Christians in the end times (yes, I do unapologetically believe in end times) will be the first of all peoples to embrace the Anti-Christ (not all of them, certainly, just those who can't actually be bothered to have even the faith of 'the mustard seed' ). I believe that, for many, the heroes of the end times will be those Jews who do 'come around' to accepting Jesus as the salvation of man, and many Jew and gentile alike will be saved by these very ones who have been reviled through history. Theirs will be an honest approach to the Savior, quite unlike what we see in many Christian churches today, more like the Christendom of the Apostles, the first Jewish Christians.

I get your points, though. I am a Christian, so I believe that, as bad as it may get, there is still hope for mankind.

@rajk999 said
Jesus was crystal clear how the judgment day scenario will play out, and it applies to ALL people. Those who do good works [clearly defined in Matt 25] are in. All others are out. Nothing said about religion, faith etc. Jesus died for all and all are justified [Romans 5:18]. Good Samaritans are all over the world and they will all be in the Kingdom of God. So are evil p ...[text shortened]... y will still be judged according to the law by which they live, their conscience being their guide.

For my money, the most telling parable in the NT is the one in which a Roman centurian, we may presume a pagan, appeals to Jesus to heal the centurian's sick servant. We may suppose that the servant was a local Jew who might have heard that Jesus was a wandering miracle worker, so that could explain why the centurian might approach him. Jesus says the most extraordinary thing to the centurian: he says, "go now, your faith has healed your servant." Not, note: I Jesus, have healed your servant by divine miracle, but YOUR faith, the faith of a pagan, has healed him.

We have to ask, what could this "faith" possibly have consisted in, the faith of a pagan?

A couple of things it cannot have consisted in spring readily to mind. It cannot have consisted in anything the centurian believed, for example about the Trinity or that Jesus's death would work the atonement of mankind's sins. Those doctrines hadn't been invented yet. Neither can it have consisted in the centurian's knowledge of anything to do with OT prophesies -- for we may presume that the pagan centurian had no familiarity with the intricacies of the Jewish religion at that time.

So what could a pagan's "faith" possibly have consisted in, that it would work the healing of his servant by his mere supplication? I would propose the following interpretation:

A Roman centurian in occupied Palestine was not a welcome guest there. The Romans in Palestine were about as welcome as the U.S. army in Iraq after George Bush invaded there in 2003. Also, a Roman centurian was a man of rank, one who commanded respect and was accustomed to unquestioning obedience from underlings. Yet he humbles himself to ask a favor, not for himself, but for someone of markedly lower rank than himself, namely his local, probably Jewish, servant. Moreover, he asks the favor of a wandering mendicant, someone else of markedly lower rank than himself. Jesus finds this blessed, this act of selflessness and humility. Therein you have the essence of Jesus's teaching. Nothing to do with Bible worship or believing in dogmas about a Trinity or atonement for mankind's sins or unbaptized babies burning for ever and ever in a lake of fire. Certainly nothing to do with membership in one particular organized religion. Just humble service to someone less fortunate than himself -- that's it, in a nutshell. For my money, anyway ...

It seems to me to be a pretty sensible and even noble ethical principle, quite apart from whether he was God incarnate. But look what Churches make of it: unbaptized babies burning for ever and ever ..... simply because they missed out on a stupid ritual.

@kellyjay said
False righteousness? Jesus clearly said only God is good, exactly who has a righteousness like God's outside of God? The people who justify themselves by their deeds do not have a pseudo-righteousness, they are no different than the guy Jesus told us about who thanked God he wasn't like others and then preceded to tell God of all the wonderful things he did, or no differen ...[text shortened]... against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Have you actually read Isaiah 65:1-7? - Do you know anything about Isaiah?!

And if your own righteousness is filthy, fair enough. Don't project that on others.

@moonbus said
For my money, the most telling parable in the NT is the one in which a Roman centurian, we may presume a pagan, appeals to Jesus to heal the centurian's sick servant. We may suppose that the servant was a local Jew who might have heard that Jesus was a wandering miracle worker, so that could explain why the centurian might approach him. Jesus says the most extraordinary thing ...[text shortened]... unbaptized babies burning for ever and ever ..... simply because they missed out on a stupid ritual.

Some great points in there. A minor correction. That Roman Centurion story is not a parable but an actual event. Yes the faith of that pagan has nothing to do with the God of Israel but faith that Jesus could by just speaking the words, heal the sick man. Nobody is going to be held accountable for ignorance on the following
- Jesus died for their sins
- whether or not Jesus is God
- knowing the bible teachings

Service to mankind is the key as you said and Jesus's teachings reflected this critical teaching even to the point where all who do not do charitable service are going to be cast out. It shows you how far Christianity have gone astray. They have added in tons of superfluous nonsense [some of which you mentioned] and removed the core teaching of Christ.

I will add in this though. Pauls teachings appear to be specifically for Christians of a particular breed. Jesus wanted Paul to recruit Christian Saints who will rule in the Kingdom of God with him. These will have to have, or have done the following:
- Professed faith in Christ/ God
- Lived righteously and done good works
These are the elect of God, who escape judgement and who never die [in the sense that they go to be with Christ after the death of their corruptible body]. Everybody else awaits judgment day.

@rajk999 said
Some great points in there. A minor correction. That Roman Centurion story is not a parable but an actual event. Yes the faith of that pagan has nothing to do with the God of Israel but faith that Jesus could by just speaking the words, heal the sick man. Nobody is going to be held accountable for ignorance on the following
- Jesus died for their sins
- whether or not ...[text shortened]... to be with Christ after the death of their corruptible body]. Everybody else awaits judgment day.

I don't think it matters whether the story of the 'miraculous' healing (spontaneous remission) of the centurian's servant is a parable or an accurate report of actual event. The message is the same either way.

I agree with you about Paul, by and large. Paul is Judaism for gentiles. Gentiles were not expected to follow the Torah (not one jot of which shall pass away for the Jews). Gentiles were not expected to circumsize their boys, refrain from eating certain foods and wearing clothes made of two or more fabrics, and so on.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Have you actually read Isaiah 65:1-7? - Do you know anything about Isaiah?!

And if your own righteousness is filthy, fair enough. Don't project that on others.

If you think you are as good as God, so be it, because He is the standard.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Have you actually read Isaiah 65:1-7? - Do you know anything about Isaiah?!

And if your own righteousness is filthy, fair enough. Don't project that on others.

Countless times yes I have.