believers in god that don't believe in young earth

Originally posted by RJHinds
The stretching theory is the best solution, because that is what is written in the Holy Bible.

The Instructor

Two points I would like to make this morning on the subject of the creation.

The Bible says that it is by faith that we Christians understand that God has framed the creation. None of us was there. Whatever science says today or tomorrow or in some distant tomorrow, it is still by faith that we Christians understand that the word of God framed the universe:

"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of the things which appear." (Hebrews 11:3)

This is not an ANTI science statement. This is a statement that science is limited in giving us assurance of understanding. Theories will come and will go. Revisions on understandings of the cosmos will change. Probably neither Moses or Paul knew of the size of the universe or the scope of time by human standards of its existence.

Today I am happy that science seems to confirm my belief.
Tomorrow when another discovery is made maybe I'll feel challenged.

Basically it is by faith that I understand God created the universe (Heb. 11:3).
No one was there to witness it except God Himself and probably some ancient angels (Job 38:4-7) .

I am excited and happy that men of science explore more and more to uncover the mysteries of the existence of the material universe. Sometimes my faith will feel confirmed. Other times my faith may feel challenged.

The second thing I would say is about BIG Time and BIG Space.

Without the aid of revelation and just using our natural mind, it is likely that we will feel dwarfed by the immensity of either time or space.

You constantly object to "billions of years" as if the thought of "billions of years" makes no sense to you in existence of man. "Why would there be billions of years where man did not exist? How could there be all this TIME and man only occupy this little moment in the whole scheme of it? "

The very same thing could be said about space. "How could there be billions of light years distance and man only occupes this little corner of the total space ?"

This matter of the immensity of either time in the past or space beyond our earth does not bother me as it bothers some YECs. The Psalmist said -

"When I see Your heavens, the works of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained, What is mortal man that You remember him, and the son of man that You visit him?" (Psalm 8:3)

The Psalmist at that time didn't know even the half of it. If he felt dwarfed by man's relative smallness in the creation then, how much more would he feel so today. That our galaxy is an "island universe" has only been discovered in the 20th century. And further that it is only one of many millions of galaxy "island universes" boggles the human mind today -

"What is man that You remember him ...?"

In our natural comprehension the relative size of man immediatly dwarfs us into insignificance in the Psalmist's day as well as today.

We should not hope to shrink down time to make us feel more comfortable. Neither should we argue that there simply cannot be so huge an amount of space in order to make us feel more signigicant. It is by faith that we understand God cares for man in the vastness of the cosmos' time and space.

What God ordains as the pinnacle of creation is what counts and not how long the universe has been around or how large it is. We are not insignificant because God created us in His image and more so that God became a man.

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... God created man in His own image ..."

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ..."

I would encourage you not to be dismayed at possible millions or billions of years any more than be disappointed by the "microscopic" earth in such a vast amount of space as to be almost incomprehensible.

I don't think you should object any more about "billions of years" before God created man as to the concept that such simply could not be.

At the appointed time and the appointed place in the universe God became a man that He might bring man into God and God into them.

He does not need a smaller space to do this - say reaching out only to the Ptolemy solar system of say five planets. Nor does He need only several thousand years of bishop Ussher. The time and the space of the receptacle is secondary. That He carries out His ecomomy with man is primary.

He remembers us and and He visits us. And that we know by faith from His word.

Originally posted by sonship
Two points I would like to make this morning on the subject of the creation.

The Bible says that it is by faith that we Christians understand that God has framed the creation. None of us was there. Whatever science says today or tomorrow or in some distant tomorrow, it is still by faith that we Christians understand that the word of God framed the univer ...[text shortened]... s and and He visits us. And that we know by faith from His word.

Great points. We, "man", seem to be possessd into making God human and all he has created something we need to touch and dig up and take apart to see how it works.
Somethings we can but it is only a spec of what we don't actually know.
And man cannot always accept that.
That is where faith and lots of patience comes in in our relationship with Jehovah.
One term I've heard in the way we should view this immense lack of knowing of all the hows and whys and all we would like to know is "do not step ahead of God" or not waiting on him. This can apply to many things but in the context of wanting to know the specifics of the creative days and all the disagreements, this can apply here too.
God has not specifically told us yet the exact details of those "days". And in the big picture of the time we are living in, which the Bible does give us specifics, this is not the time in our history that he sees the need in explaining this topic.
But for us who do want to know, the Bible says in the future he is going to "open up new scrolls" of knowledge.
So one should be patient on this and look forward to it, but concern themselves with this point in time and really read and ask Jehovah to help us learn how to survive this wicked world we live in that is about to end.

Great points. We, "man", seem to be possessd into making God human and all he has created something we need to touch and dig up and take apart to see how it works.

A few respnding points:

1.) Some people are obsessed with making God human. Yet that human is always imperfect. Not all people are so obsessed.

The Moslems are obsessed with keeping God and man completely separate as are the Orthodox Jews and your own belief of Jehovah's Witnesses. As well as The Way International and many other sects, cults, or groups.

They are not obsessed with incarnation. They rather feel duty bound to keep the Word from becomming flesh as the New Testament has taught.
Those who crucified Jesus were thus obsessed.

Arians were similarly occupied with underminding the incarnation of God to be the man Jesus.

2.) God in fact longed to be one with humanity, ie. become human. That is the perfect Human the Lord Jesus which no man could ever imagine up.

Moslems are incensed that God could be a dying PERFECT man executed on a Roman cross. Of course Moslems cannot believe that a prophet could be sinful either.



3.) God does not forbide us to try to find out things by our invention of science. He may not HELP us by revelation. But He does neither forbide us to try to figure many things out.

Somethings we can but it is only a spec of what we don't actually know.
And man cannot always accept that.

Job 26:14 - "Indeed, these are but the fringes [outskirts] of His ways; And how small a whisper do we hear of Him!

But as for the thundering of His mightiness, who can comprehend it?"

We should not be surprised that many things God has simply not told us. That could pertain to the very distant past.
It could pertain to the very distant future.
It most certainly must pertain to eternity.

God also will not grant certain knowledge pre-maturely to an unruly person. He will not trust certain information to us until we come up to a certain level of maturity able to handle such knowledge.

Do we not see Jesus telling the disciples that they could not yet handle certain things He wanted to tell them?

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. " (John 16:12)

"And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write, and I heard a voice out of heaven saying, Seal the things which the seven thunders spoke, and do not write them." (Revelation 10:4)

There are unknowns. And the Christian should be ready to admit in her gospel preaching that there are some unknowns.

That is where faith and lots of patience comes in in our relationship with Jehovah.

Wating on God has much to do with waiting as God uses TIME to dispense His life into those who receive Him.

This is like the waiting for the tea bag to flavor the water. It takes time for the tea bag to dispense its flavor into the hot water so that the water become tea water.

Actually we say that the water become Tea.

Waiting on God involves waiting for God to move into your being by way of dispensing His Holy Spirit. This is why we have to receive Christ. We have to say YES to God's desire to impart Jesus into our innermost spiritual being.

The blood of His redemption makes this possible. Otherwise we would be forever separated from the life of God as the cherubim protected the way to the tree of life with a flaming sword that turned every direction. There would be simply no way to come forward to receive God as divine life.

Christ has effectively removed the barrier between us and the life of God. For we were alienated from the life of God.

"Benig darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart" (Eph. 4:18)

God WANTS TO BE THE GOD WITHIN, the GOD WHO ENTERS, THE GOD WHO IMPARTS HIMSELF INTO OUR BEING.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

" We " ... the Father and the Son ... "We" the Triune God - the Father and the Son as the Holy Spirit will come as the Divine "WE" and make a living abode with the lover of the Lord Jesus.

When we receive Jesus we receive into us the life of the Father also.

" ... God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

I have written these thingsto you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God."(1 John 5:11b-13)

One term I've heard in the way we should view this immense lack of knowing of all the hows and whys and all we would like to know is "do not step ahead of God" or not waiting on him. This can apply to many things but in the context of wanting to know the specifics of the creative days and all the disagreements, this can apply here too.
God has not specifically told us yet the exact details of those "days". And in the big picture of the time we are living in, which the Bible does give us specifics, this is not the time in our history that he sees the need in explaining this topic.
But for us who do want to know, the Bible says in the future he is going to "open up new scrolls" of knowledge.
So one should be patient on this and look forward to it, but concern themselves with this point in time and really read and ask Jehovah to help us learn how to survive this wicked world we live in that is about to end.

To overcome this wicked world we must receive the unique Overcomer - Jesus. Fear not He has overcome the world.

the victory that overcomes the world is our faith in Him. We allow Him to first enter and then to live out again His life on earth - this time "wearing" us.

"Lord Jesus, You overcome in me. Lord Jesus, You live out Your life from within me."

Once He is within us we can stand upon the truth [b](First John 4:4) -

"You are of God, little children; and you have overcome them because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world."

Lord Jesus - Jehovah become a man, I receive You in Christ Jesus to be the Overcoming One within me. Jesus is the tree of life which we must "EAT" today and take INTO our being - receiving Jesus Christ.

"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

Did you EAT Jesus today friends ?