25 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyOf course I mind! That is the whole bloody point!
So you don't mind if one day you are viewed as the infidel for not being a Muslim and are subsequently dealt with as such?
I want all of you to stop believing in the ridiculous, the unsubstantiated. If not for your own sakes, then for mine!
Don't be so quick to judge Islam; your own religion has plenty of blood on its hands. Your own magic book has plenty of violence.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperAs I have ALREADY pointed out, Christ ushered in an era of grace. Neither Christ nor his immediate followers rendered evil for evil. Is this ridiculous to believe? It seems to me that this is what the world needs more of rather than what Islam has to offer in terms of rendering evil for evil even if you do not beliive in God at all. You may think such religious speculations are "silly", however, your life may hang in the balance because of such theologies.
Of course I mind! That is the whole bloody point!
I want all of you to stop believing in the ridiculous, the unsubstantiated. If not for your own sakes, then for mine!
Don't be so quick to judge Islam; your own religion has plenty of blood on its hands. Your own magic book has plenty of violence.
25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyNew era of grace?
As I have ALREADY pointed out, Christ ushered in an era of grace. Neither Christ nor his immediate followers rendered evil for evil. Is this ridiculous to believe? It seems to me that this is what the world needs more of rather than what Islam has to offer in terms of rendering evil for evil even if you do not beliive in God at all. You may think such rel ...[text shortened]... eculations are "silly", however, your life may hang in the balance because of such theologies.
Consider Matthew 5:18-19.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Sounds like a call for same old, same old to me.
EDIT: John 15:6 is worth checking out as well...
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
25 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by TheSkipperChrist said that he did not come to destroy the law but that he was a fulfillment of the law. The spirit of the law is love. Stealing, killling, etc, is simply the breaking of the #1 commandment which is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Therefore, dealing harshly with such law breakers in the OT was seen as stopping that particular sin. This was done in a spirit of love for the society in which they lived so as not to perpetuate such behavoir. Christ came to break the sin in our lives so that the sinner may stop sinning without being dealt with harshly.
New era of grace?
Consider Matthew 5:18-19.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoev ...[text shortened]... as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
From the Muslims I have conversed with the Christian God of love is not the one and same as Allah. Allah hates those who do not follow him. Conversly, the Chrisitan God says that he loved us and died for us even though we were undeserving sinners.
I think the theology is plain enough in terms of how Chrisitanity/Islam exists today. Who does all the killing in the name of God? Is it Christians?
Originally posted by whodeyThis is the thing, Whodey, I have no compelling reason to believe this...none. Just as you have no compelling reason to believe that your atheism towards Islam will have an effect on your own supposed eternal life.
however, your life may hang in the balance because of such theologies.
Just stop for a moment, think. Think about how you view Islam; think about all the claims made in the Koran which are not backed up by evidence, think about the fantasy of a man flying to heaven on a winged horse. Think about why you do not believe Islam to be true.
Now, know that I do not believe in the god of the bible for the exact same reasons you do not believe in Islam. Why does my lack of belief cause my life to "hang in the balance", but your lack of belief does not put your own life in similar jeopardy. Bare in mind that the Muslim's magic book says in plain language you will go to hell.
25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyPlease read the versus I quoted!!!
Christ said that he did not come to destroy the law but that he was a fulfillment of the law. The spirit of the law is love. Stealing, killling, etc, is simply the breaking of the #1 commandment which is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Therefore, dealing harshly with such law breakers in the OT was seen as stopping that particular sin ...[text shortened]... hrisitanity/Islam exists today. Who does all the killing in the name of God? Is it Christians?
"...not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Unless you believe all is accomplished then your theology stands in direct opposition to Matthew chapter 5.
Who does all the killing in the name of God? Is it Christians?
Go back to the dark ages and ask yourself the same questions.
25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyWhodey:
As I have ALREADY pointed out, Christ ushered in an era of grace. Neither Christ nor his immediate followers rendered evil for evil. Is this ridiculous to believe? It seems to me that this is what the world needs more of rather than what Islam has to offer in terms of rendering evil for evil even if you do not beliive in God at all. You may think such rel ...[text shortened]... eculations are "silly", however, your life may hang in the balance because of such theologies.
We exist within a certain moment of time. In this moment of time, the majority of Christians are
not killing each other wantonly over their faith. But one only has to go back 40 years to see how
Roman Catholics and Protestants were killing each other over nothing with zeal and fervor, and all
'in the name of Christ.' 450 years ago, Christians were killing Jews for not being Christian. 1000 years
ago, Christians were killing Moslems to 'reclaim the Holy Land.'
Yes, right now there are a seemingly high number of violent Moslems. Ahosyney doesn't deny this.
But it's not the majority, and it's not mainstream. The overwhelming majority of Moslems just go on
with their lives doing the things that Moslems do, trying to worship God in the way that they see fit.
Most do not accept murder as a viable form of conversion, just like most Christians don't. But
all you have to do is go back a few decades to find Christians willing to rend each other apart over
the smallest details.
Some would argue that President Bush's actions had a religious motivation, which would make him one
of a long line of Christian zealots. And yes, there are Moslem zealots, and Jewish zealots, and I
suppose Zoroastrian zealots, too.
So, your claims of grace are not well founded, since many horrible atrocities have been done in the
name of Jesus. And given the hostility that Christians like yourself are harboring towards Moslems --
with your none-so-charitable beheading comments, actions that are profoundly appalling to the vast
majority of Moslems -- only betrays that the violence is merely brewing underneath the surface, which
is a tragedy.
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyHowever, despite the fact that not ALL Muslims are like this does not mean that this is the stereotype because the reality is that many are like this. Just turn on the 6 o'clock news.
I do not listen to the preacher in question so I guess I will take your word for what he says. However, despite the fact that not ALL Muslims are like this does not mean that this is the stereotype because the reality is that many are like this. Just turn on the 6 o'clock news.
One of the main reasons I disdain Islamic beliefs is due to the violence that rored Christs more than it did Mohammad's yet he remained a Muslim instead of a Christian.
What difference is this from what I said about that preacher? Your are listening to another preacher. I will answer you with one Hadith from the Prophet may be you understand:
"Proceed and do not hurry. When you enter their territory, call them to embrace Islam and inform them of Allah's Rights which they should observe, for by Allah, even if a single man is led on the right path (of Islam) by Allah through you, then that will be better for you than the nice red camels."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.521
This is a part of a long Hadith, it summarize the purpose of any action the Muslim do. To led others to the light. And that is the Jihad I know, and Islam wants. But of course you don't see that.
One of the main reasons I disdain Islamic beliefs is due to the violence that it seems to generate.
What are the Islamic beliefs that generate violence. Don't tell me al Quaeda and Osama Ben Laden because I will directly copy your following passage:
I do not defend those "Christians", however. They were in no way Christ-like..
Not every Christian who do violence represent Christianity, and so Muslims who do violence don't represent Islam.
-----
I presented some of the prophet's Mohammed teachings in the Hadith thread. And there are many more, but of course those teachings are not of any importance to you. I doubt that you even read them. I wounder why? All what you care about is the free gift that you got.
----
Christ ushered in a new era of grace in which OT butchery to stop sin is no longer needed. Now we have the blood of Jesus to stop sin. To me, Islam is a throwback to that OT theology of an eye for an eye.
The OT theology is from GOD as the supposed so different NT. That is your big problem , which makes all what you say doesn't make any sense. Actually your statment could be some how correct. Islam is to return people to the right way after they deviated from it due to Christianity.
Conversly, Christ commanded us to love our enemies. So if you claim that Christ is a prophet from Allah you have one of two choices. You can ignore a prophet from Allah or simply say that Chirst never said such a thing. I assum you will say the later and much is the pity.
Actually it is not me who say the second. If you read the bible carefully you will come to the same concolusion, but the devil is blinding your eye from the truth. There is no book in the Bible is trusted to build your faith upon it. If you read my thread about Hadith you will understand what Isnad means and you will realize that you have no Isnad for the bible.
And even if we assumed he said it. You interpret it in a totaly different domain. If you look at the Jews behaviour and their life you will understand why Jesus said that to them. Remember Jesus was sent to Jewish to correct the corruption thet happened to their doctrains.
---------------------
The story about your friend doesn't mean anything. There is only one comment here:
It seemed to me that his theology mirrored Christs more than it did Mohammad's yet he remained a Muslim instead of a Christian.
(Nobel-Translation)(Fussilat)(o 34 o)(34. The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel -the evil- with one which is better -i.e. Allâh ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly-, then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, -will become- as though he was a close friend.)
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-A'raf)(o 199 o)(199. Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the foolish -i.e. don't punish them-.)
(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nisaa)(o 149 o)(149. Whether you -mankind- disclose -by good words of thanks- a good deed -done to you in the form of a favour by someone-, or conceal it, or pardon an evil, ... verily, Allâh is Ever OftPardoning, AllPowerful.)
(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nur)(o 22 o)(22. And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give -any sort of help- to their kinsmen, Al-Masâkîn -the poor-, and those who left their homes for Allâh's Cause. Let them pardon and forgive. Do you not love that Allâh should forgive you? And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)
So I think he was following Quran. But because you don't know that you made this assumption. If you read these verses carfully you will see they give a greater and more clear meaning than what Jesus said.
I hope you give yourself a time to read the following:
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 73:
Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 76:
To make the Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/076.sbt.html
Please promise me to read it. I know this complete post go in vain, but I will take my chances.
25 Jul 07
Whodey,
I think you need to think about why you dismissed my call for you to provide some evidence to support your beliefs. You instantly turned the conversation into a debate about which theology is better, and even if you could prove to me that Christianity is a better religion than Islam (which you could probably do) it does nothing to solve the original problem of lack of evidence.
Allow me to demonstrate. In the argument the two children are having with regards to the superiority of Santa Clause over Easter Bunny, which I referenced earlier, your contribution seems to be that Santa is better because he encourages good behavior. This is a good argument for Santa being better, but it does not solve the underlying question of whether either one exists.
It is utterly pointless to claim you magic book is better than Islam's magic book if you have not established, through evidence, a good reason to believe whether either one is accurate in the first place.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperI might look silly,(and I know you already have this look, and I do the same as will) why don't you, as an athiest, don't accept the idea that GOD choosed some group of peoples, talked with them with what he wants from people, and that is who he talked to us?
Whodey,
I think you need to think about why you dismissed my call for you to provide some evidence to support your beliefs. You instantly turned the conversation into a debate about which theology is better, and even if you could prove to me that Christianity is a better religion than Islam (which you could probably do) it does nothing to solve the or ...[text shortened]... , through evidence, a good reason to believe whether either one is accurate in the first place.
BTY: The only reason a Muslim is allowed to kill non-mulsim is when that non-Muslim attack the Muslim? And if he can defend himself without killing him it is better.
Also this mainly will be through war, not individual acts.
If any body has any Islamic doctrain say something different please show it here.
So don't worry I will not touch you 😉
25 Jul 07
3 edits
Originally posted by ahosyneySpecifically, it has to do more with what the Hadith and/or Quran do not say. For example, there is no verse comparible to Christ's teaching that one should love your enemies. Also, I am not certain of the exact wording of the text but Mohammad said something to the effect that one is justified in rendering evil for evil if attacked and/or is being persecuted. This opens the door for what qualifies as persecution. Are we being persecuted by our neighbors, by the state etc? What then qualifies as a reasonable response to such percieved persecution? For example, suppose I am unjustly fired from my job. What should be my response? Suppose I lose my home and lose my wife and lose my children to my wife because I lost my job? Suppose I feel as though my boss has ruined my entire life because he fired me and so in retaliation I decide to ruin his life and shoot him. Is this a reasonable response? I see this type of reasoning with Islamofacism. Also, in the cycle of violence, one could ALWAYS point to a time when one feels as though they were persecuted or wronged. Where then does the cycle end? When should one chose to turn the other cheek? Should one ever turn the other cheek.
What are the Islamic beliefs that generate violence. Don't tell me al Quaeda and Osama Ben Laden because I will directly copy your following passage:
25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodey
Also, I am not certain of the exact wording of the text but Mohammad said something to the effect that one is justified in rendering evil for evil if attacked and/or is being persecuted.
The Hebrew Bible says this, too. Not to mention all of the recorded
slaughtering that God supposedly justified by His command.
I see this type of reasoning with Islamofacism.
You see similar types of hatred being done in the 'name of Christ' by
organizations that, for example, support violence against homosexuals.
Decent Christians rightly deny the 'Christianity' in such a fringe group,
just like decent Moslems deny the 'Islamicness' of violent behavior in
fringe Islamofacists.
Why is this hard for you to understand?
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeydid you ever find me talking about Christianity , Jesus, or the Bible, without a reference. (I didn't response about the 325 post because others said enought about that).
Specifically, it has to do more with what the Hadith and/or Quran do not say. For example, there is no verse comparible to Christ's teaching that one should love your enemies. Also, I am not certain of the exact wording of the text but Mohammad said something to the effect that one is justified in rendering evil for evil if attacked and/or is being persecut ...[text shortened]... cle end? When should one chose to turn the other cheek? Should one ever turn the other cheek.
In this complete post you didn't give a single reference. It is all assumption you based about you hear from the 6'O clock news.
If you read my post you will understand that your complete post doesn't make any sense. I gave 4 or 5 verses from Quran , did you read them. Do you think after reading them your claim in this post can still take place.
Yes the Islamic law give the right to take your revenge if you want. But the Quran and the Prophet teachings argue you to forgive.
(Nobel-Translation)(Fussilat)(o 34 o)(34. The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel -the evil- with one which is better -i.e. Allâh ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly-, then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, -will become- as though he was a close friend.)
Please read what I post. Please read this verse and tell me what you think.
Suppose I feel as though my boss has ruined my entire life because he fired me and so in retaliation I decide to ruin his life and shoot him.
Do you really think that Islamic teaching support this. If so then you know nothing about Islam.
When should one chose to turn the other cheek? Should one ever turn the other cheek.
I asked you before about this teaching how will you implement it in your life and I didn't get an answer.
BTY: Did you read anything I asked you to read before? You asked me to read in the Bible, and I always do.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyDid you ask yourself this Question before:
Specifically, it has to do more with what the Hadith and/or Quran do not say. For example, there is no verse comparible to Christ's teaching that one should love your enemies. Also, I am not certain of the exact wording of the text but Mohammad said something to the effect that one is justified in rendering evil for evil if attacked and/or is being persecut ...[text shortened]... cle end? When should one chose to turn the other cheek? Should one ever turn the other cheek.
I the last ten years how many Muslims died with the hands of non-Muslims?
In the last ten years how many non-Muslims died with the hands of Muslims?
--------------------------------------
Did you ever know that Muslims themselves were the target of terrorist attackes in Egypt, Sudia Areibia, Algeria, and many other countries. The majority of Muslims are suffering from terrorism the same way every one else do. But you only see yourself.
26 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by TheSkipperYou miss my point. Showing the Bible to be based in truth IS evidence. For example, Christ said that the law of love was first and foremost. In fact, ALL of the laws of the prophets hang on the law of love. If you keep the law of love you will abide by all of God's commandments without even trying. For me this is a truth that is pure in nature and perfect. Who can argue against such a teaching?
Whodey,
I think you need to think about why you dismissed my call for you to provide some evidence to support your beliefs. You instantly turned the conversation into a debate about which theology is better, and even if you could prove to me that Christianity is a better religion than Islam (which you could probably do) it does nothing to solve the or , through evidence, a good reason to believe whether either one is accurate in the first place.
Love is one of those intagible aspects to our existence that is not part of our material world. It is that spiritual aspect to us that is incalcuable and unmeasurable yet we are foolish to deny its existence or even deny the importance of it in our own lives. It reminds me of a classic pop song by ELO with the lyrics, "Love is like Oxygen, you get to much and you get to high, not enough and your going to die. Love is like Oxygen"