Believers only please

Originally posted by whodey
You miss my point. Showing the Bible to be based in truth IS evidence. For example, Christ said that the law of love was first and foremost. In fact, ALL of the laws of the prophets hang on the law of love. If you keep the law of love you will abide by all of God's commandments without even trying. For me this is a truth that is pure in nature and perfec ...[text shortened]... of our material world. It is that spiritual aspect to us that is incalcuable and unmeasurable.

You would be equally impressed by Jainism.

You seem to think Christianity is the first religion/life philosophy to come along that stresses love...it simply isn't. Therefor, using your own logic that truth = evidence you should be pulled in thousands of different directions instead of betting completely and devoutly on Christianity.

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say, and not very well, is that because Christianity has elements of love (you would argue it has more than simply "elements", surely) that should be all the evidence one needs. Well, it isn't. Also, there are many other religions that preach love and you don't seem to be following them...why not?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Yes the Islamic law give the right to take your revenge if you want. But the Quran and the Prophet teachings argue you to forgive.

I think this is the point I am trying to drive home. As a Muslim, you are given the right to take revenge, however, you are only encouraged to forgive if so inclined but you are not commanded to do so. Conversly, Christ commanded us to love our enemies. This different from Mohammads writings that make such forgiving merely a powerful suggestion. I think if given a choice, our human nature would opt for revenge more often than not. However, if you were commanded not to take revenge, the only option is to obey the command or disregard the messenger given the command altogether. In short, the Bible says that vengence is mine says the Lord, therefore, I reject EVER reacting in a spirit of vengence.

As far as the web site you gave me, it was interesting but it did not refute the notions I mentioned above. In fact, one verse stood out at me which was volume 8, book 73 #6 when Mohammad commands us not to ask to many religious questions. I guess that does not bode well for any of us, no?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
You would be equally impressed by Jainism.

You seem to think Christianity is the first religion/life philosophy to come along that stresses love...it simply isn't. Therefor, using your own logic that truth = evidence you should be pulled in thousands of different directions instead of betting completely and devoutly on Christianity.

EDIT: I guess ...[text shortened]... e many other religions that preach love and you don't seem to be following them...why not?

First of all, Christ said that no man has a greater love than to lay down his life for his freinds and this is precisely what he did for me. I know of no other religion in which God has reached out to his creation in such a way than what I find that Christ has done for me.

The other aspect of Christianity that appeals to me is that it is not a work based theology. All other religions I know state that God looks at your bad deeds and your good deeds and you simply hope your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds. I just don't get it. It's like a murdered getting up on the stand in a court of law and saying what a great person he is and how many great things he has done and the judge looking down at him and saying, "That's great, but that is not why you are on trial here sir. You are here because you murdered someone so how do you plead?"

And lastly, the Christian God is a personal God. All other religiions I know God is a distant observer. If God is really a God of love then I would think this would not be so. On the other hand, if God is not a God of love, what does he care about me? Then if he cares nothing for me, what do I care about him? Christ says that we love him because he first loved us. It is only common sense.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by whodey
[b]Also, I am not certain of the exact wording of the text but Mohammad said something to the effect that one is justified in rendering evil for evil if attacked and/or is being persecuted.

The Hebrew Bible says this, too. Not to mention all of the recorded
slaughtering that God supposedly justified by His comma t behavior in
fringe Islamofacists.

Why is this hard for you to understand?

Nemesio[/b]

I have already covered the New covenant verses old covenant. Christ ushered in an era of grace so embrace it.

I will not argue that people kill in the name of Christ. This is indisputable. What I will argue, however, is that neither Christ nor his disciples that he chose killed in his name. Why? Were they not persecuted? Were they not all eventually martyred save one? Could it be that the reason they did not strike back is because this is not what Christ was all about? In fact, when they came for Jesus Peter drew a sword and Christ rebuked him. Would Mohammad have acted in the same way? What do you think?

I realize that the crusades and such conquered and killed in the name of Christ. However, this was many hundreds of years after Christ walked the earth. All scriptural evidence that I can see dictates that they were in error.

Originally posted by whodey
First of all, Christ said that no man has a greater love than to lay down his life for his freinds and this is precisely what he did for me. I know of no other religion in which God has reached out to his creation in such a way than what I find that Christ has done for me.

The other aspect of Christianity that appeals to me is that it is not a work based ...[text shortened]... out him? Christ says that we love him because he first loved us. It is only common sense.

Yeah, I know, it is a great story. So is The Hobbit. Evidence man!

So far you have given me the argument that your fairytale is better than the other guy's fairytale...hardly compelling.

And this latest seems to be that you really really think the story is neat-o, and you totally dig love.

Meanwhile, you suggest that all other religions are "works based" which implies an impressive ignorance about other religions. You have yet to offer me one single shred of legitimate evidence (keeping in mind that "Christianity has truth, therefore God must be real" really is as pointless as it sounds, and not evidence of anything). You cannot tell me why you are an atheist when it comes to Islam, but a theist when it comes to Christianity except to totally mis-characterize Islam, and then claim Christianity is "love".

I have just as much reason to believe in the existence of Zeus as you have to believe in God.

Come on man, you are so close; you have denied the existence of literally tens of thousands of gods...just ONE more.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Yeah, I know, it is a great story. So is The Hobbit. Evidence man!

So far you have given me the argument that your fairytale is better than the other guy's fairytale...hardly compelling.

And this latest seems to be that you really really think the story is neat-o, and you totally dig love.

Meanwhile, you suggest that all other religions are " ...[text shortened]... se; you have denied the existence of literally tens of thousands of gods...just ONE more.

There are many evidences for me that lead me to believe that the God of the Bible is real. For example, the Bible has been shown to be a good source in terms of historical truth. It is not a book based upon made up stories as you would have us believe. Just ask a Biblical archaeologist. Also amazing to me is that this ancient belief in the God of the Bible has survived and, in fact, given birith to 3 world wide religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judism. Equally amazing is that the nation of Israel has been reborn as foretold by the prophetic word. It would be akin to the ancient empire of Babylon being reborn along with their customs and religious beliefs in tact. I assume the gods of Babylon are not true gods because they have been long forgotten. They seem to have no power whatsoever. Either that or they have lost it some where down the line. Then you have prophesies about the coming battle to end all battles in the Holy Land called armageddon. Do you not see this unfolding this very hour? Why does Israel seem to hold the worlds attention like no other? Why are they hated like no other? What about the hundreds of prophetic words about the coming of the Messiah that have been fulfilled? In fact, in Daniel 9 a timetable is given for the coming of the Messiah that fits the coming of Christ to a tee that was given hundreds of years before he walked the earth!!

But that is not the clincher, however. The clincher for me is my walk with him and how he has changed me. It is like he breathed life into me for the first time after I gave my life to Christ and he even talks to me in different ways. It is not real to you but it is real to me. If my reality is a fairytale then you can keep your reality. I think the real question is who is happier? Happiness is reality. If you are happy where you are now then by all means stay where you are at, but if not then seek to change.

Originally posted by whodey
I think the real question is who is happier?

I don't. But even if that were the "real question", it's simply a descriptive fact that there are people (myself, for instance) who don't need your incredibly dubious metaphysics to flourish and live oontentedly. I really don't understand why you think your commitments support some privileged degree of happiness. Frankly, I think one of the illusions that persistently informs your faith -- related to permanence of things, especially the self -- is a vehicle for suffering.

Originally posted by whodey
There are many evidences for me that lead me to believe that the God of the Bible is real. For example, the Bible has been shown to be a good source in terms of historical truth. It is not a book based upon made up stories as you would have us believe. Just ask a Biblical archaeologist. Also amazing to me is that this ancient belief in the God of the Bibl ...[text shortened]... happy where you are now then by all means stay where you are at, but if not then seek to change.

Here we go again. Are you as tired of all this as I am? Rather than go through it all let me say that I'm well read enough to refute your entire first paragraph, I promise. Some of it would be compelling even to you probably, and some of it you would fight me on. We would go round and round for 3 or 4 pages and then one or both of would lose interest in the thread, it would fall off the first page and that would be that. The funny thing is you have probably already heard the objections atheists have to the points you make in your first paragraph, just as I have already heard those same points. Yet, here we are dutifully rehashing it. Doesn't say much for our intellects does it? 😉

What do you say we just skip it this time? Stop trying to convince each other about how legitimate our various beliefs are, and just speak honestly with one another.

Listen, I often come off sounding dismissive and elitist when posting here about Christianity. I'm sorry about that, I get carried away, and I have too much respect for you than to treat you that way. I still think your wrong, and some of the things you write just make me cringe at the insanity of it. The most recent example would be some of your posts in the "Hair and Prayer" thread. However, despite all that I do respect you, and I'm sorry my tone does not always reflect it.

What are we to do? I can't convince you with mere facts and figures that you shouldn't believe what you do; it wasn't facts and figures that convinced you to believe it in the first place. You can't convince me to join you in your belief, indeed I think even you would admit that only God can do that. He did once, truth be told, I was once a theist just like you. Totally convinced, bought the whole thing hook, line and sinker. I don't know whether God let me go or if I did something to offend him or what, but that ol' feeling just isn't there anymore. In fact, it has been gone so long I have now decided it was my imagination or simply the exuberance of youth.

I guess the best we can do is try to understand each other. I think I understand you reasonably well, heck I think I used to BE you. ;0 I just don't know how to start a thread where the atheists and theists can stop the chest thumping long enough to even try to understand each other. Maybe I'm being stupid...I mean what is to understand about a theist from the perspective of the atheist? You all come off as at least partially crazy to most of us (I say that with love if you can believe it). Geez, I don't know.

Please don't view this message as some sort of "breakthrough", and assume that I'm close to "finding Jesus" (again!). That part of my life is well over, and it is going to take a heck of a lot of explaining on God's part before I can go back to that whole thing again. I'm just sick of fighting with you (and all the others). I still think you're nuts, but isn't there something better we could do with this forum? It seems like there should be, but for the life of me I can't figure what it is.

Be well, mate.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Yeah, I know, it is a great story. So is The Hobbit. Evidence man!

So far you have given me the argument that your fairytale is better than the other guy's fairytale...hardly compelling.

And this latest seems to be that you really really think the story is neat-o, and you totally dig love.

Meanwhile, you suggest that all other religions are " ...[text shortened]... se; you have denied the existence of literally tens of thousands of gods...just ONE more.

Yeah, I know, it is a great story. So is The Hobbit. Evidence man! So far you have given me the argument that your fairytale is better than the other guy's fairytale...hardly compelling.

C'mon, you don't really want evidence, Skipper. That's the last thing you want. What you want is the bible to remain the fairytale you imagine it to be. I guarantee you, even if I told you how to find the evidence that Jesus Christ is indeed Truth, that you wouldn't make a sincere and concerted effort to search for it. In fact, you'd probably just laugh at me.

I have just as much reason to believe in the existence of Zeus as you have to believe in God.

That's because you've never met God.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Yeah, I know, it is a great story. So is The Hobbit. Evidence man! So far you have given me the argument that your fairytale is better than the other guy's fairytale...hardly compelling.

C'mon, you don't really want evidence, Skipper. That's the last thing you want. What you want is the bible to remain the fairytale you imagine it to be. ...[text shortened]... tence of Zeus as you have to believe in God.[/b]

That's because you've never met God.[/b]

Let me guess...in order to find the evidence first I have to believe, and then all will be revealed to me. If I believe, but still don't get it I can assume that I did a poor job at the believing part.

Yeah, you're right I'm laughing. The question is, why aren't you?

That's because you've never met God.

Actually, I have. For many years of my life I was a Christian, I just managed to come to my senses. But sure, I met all there is of God to meet. It just turned out to be delusion and wishful thinking.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Let me guess...in order to find the evidence first I have to believe, and then all will be revealed to me. If I believe, but still don't get it I can assume that I did a poor job at the believing part.

Yeah, you're right I'm laughing. The question is, why aren't you?

[b]That's because you've never met God.

Actually, I have. For many years ...[text shortened]... met all there is of God to meet. It just turned out to be delusion and wishful thinking.[/b]

Damnit!

There I go sounding dismissive, and like a big jerk again!

I can't seem to help myself, maybe I need to drink more.

Anyway, sorry, sorry, sorry...I'm an ass.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Let me guess...in order to find the evidence first I have to believe, and then all will be revealed to me. If I believe, but still don't get it I can assume that I did a poor job at the believing part.

Yeah, you're right I'm laughing. The question is, why aren't you?

[b]That's because you've never met God.

Actually, I have. For many years ...[text shortened]... met all there is of God to meet. It just turned out to be delusion and wishful thinking.[/b]

But sure, I met all there is of God to meet.

My turn to laugh... 😀 I can say with utmost confidence that you have not met all there is of God.

It just turned out to be delusion and wishful thinking.

You mentioned something quite revealing in your last post, "that ol' feeling just isn't there anymore." Your faith was based on a feeling. But faith is not a feeling, and neither is it sustained by feelings. To have faith in Jesus Christ implies not only trusting and believing in Him, but also actively seeking him, relying on him, and adhering to his teachings.

I went through a 'dry' period several years ago, where God withdrew His presence from me. It was a dark, depressing time, wherein God seemed to have turned his face from me. In talking with other Christians and my spiritual mentors I discovered that almost all of them had a similar experience at least once in their past where "that ol' feeling" just wasn't there anymore.

The lesson I learned? Don't trust your feelings. Faith should not be based in feelings. It is a lesson God teaches all believers at some point in their maturation in Christ. Feelings can be manipulated and are untrustworthy. The danger is that a believer may only believe he or she is loved, for example, when he or she 'feels' loved by God, which may cause that person to seek out feelings instead of God Himself, etc.

The true assurances of faith are spiritual (intuitive) and not soulical (feelings based). Many unexpected rewards of God's presence and peace within one's spirit are arrived at through continued trust and fidelity to Christ despite the aridity of one's soul. These are often called "desert" experiences.

This process is indicative of God's goal of sanctifying the believer; that is, freeing his spirit from the bondage of his soul.

Originally posted by whodey
You miss my point. Showing the Bible to be based in truth IS evidence. For example, Christ said that the law of love was first and foremost. In fact, ALL of the laws of the prophets hang on the law of love. If you keep the law of love you will abide by all of God's commandments without even trying. For me this is a truth that is pure in nature and perfec ...[text shortened]... you get to much and you get to high, not enough and your going to die. Love is like Oxygen"

The only problem is that when I point out that the God portrayed in the Bible is not loving (by my definition) you will then proceed to redefine love based on God. So your argument becomes circular. ie:
1. Love is defined as God.
2. God is love therefore....

Originally posted by twhitehead
The only problem is that when I point out that the God portrayed in the Bible is not loving (by my definition) you will then proceed to redefine love based on God. So your argument becomes circular. ie:
1. Love is defined as God.
2. God is love therefore....

The OT, I agree, is a brutal account. The results of God's fidelity to the children of Abraham were ugly and disturbing. The Israelites, God admitted, were a stubborn people, and their sins and disasters didn't always reflect well on God Himself, who was often relegated to the sidelines in their affairs, or to rescuing them from some dire predicament.

No doubt God would have rejected them long ago if it wasn't for his promise to Abraham.

God's one great purpose, of course, was to bring Jesus Christ into the world through Abraham's seed, meaning despite themselves the children of Abraham were granted God's favor.

On the one hand, the Israelites were constantly disobeying God and getting themselves into trouble, and on the other hand, God was advancing his ultimate purpose through every circumstance. The result is what you find on the page... It's ugly, disturbing, and sad, but true.

It was not until Jesus Christ arrived on the scene when God had his full day in the sun, so to speak. Jesus Christ is the full revelation of God, and we must look to Him if we are to know God as He is. God as represented in the OT is not a complete revelation by any means.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The OT, I agree, is a brutal account. The results of God's fidelity to the children of Abraham were ugly and disturbing. The Israelites, God admitted, were a stubborn people, and their sins and disasters didn't always reflect well on God Himself, who was often relegated to the sidelines in their affairs, or to rescuing them from some dire predicament. ...[text shortened]... ow God as He is. God as represented in the OT is not a complete revelation by any means.

Most Catholics I know, look at the Old Testament as a message to older times.

They believe that the language and the metaphors were harsher because the times were tougher and, above all, God knew that to communicate he couldn't simply use the language that Christ used. Mankind wasn't ready yet. They then look at the New Testament as the true message and the Old Testament as an outdated one.

Just my 0.02€.