Believers only please

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The OT, I agree, is a brutal account.

I wasn't just talking about the OT God though that is a good example. I was more referring to the fact that God does not stop suffering in the world today. In my book, that is not the behavior of a loving being and does not fit my definition of Love. Most people I talk to say "well if God does it, it is love because God is Love." As I say - circular.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Do you know what is the name of GOD in the language of Jesus Christ?

I don't think you know,

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Your Bible talks only about prophets sent to Jewish. It doesn't tell you anything about other prophets who were sent every where. That is why you show this post.

I know what name jews where using for the name of god, at the time of jesus and still are using "Eloheino"...
I have asked...
To think one religion is superior to anthor is wrong.
Lets face it theis two religons crhistianaty and the muslimic come one and the same religon and that is the jewish faith. And that is FACT.
The are alot of things wrong in how people are practise their faith to day, for example: jews -"we are the people", crhristians-"you need jesus to get to paradice", muslims-"Blow people upp and you get go to paradice".
And that is only one example you want more?
What I am trying to say if all theis morrons where to belive in god as they are wouldnt it be more peace? Because that is what the good book are talking about.
And since none of the big three are practising what they should preach what good are they?
I know you most possible are going to bee angry by this post but one second befor you delete this one think about it: Am wrong?
I am just saying as I see it.
And if you think their is going to bee pease between them you are wron, wrong, and to quote Humble Bellows :I will belive it when my humble eyes see it...
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Edit :Love they next he is like you. The rest is comments who said it:-> Theprotectors
Edit : You dont need to agree you need to read more to lurn how people presive. And think. I am still lurning my self and still a hard.
And I read a lot.

Originally posted by whodey
the Christian God is a personal God. All other religiions I know God is a distant observer. .

Whodey, can you expand on this statement?
I have heard many people say it but I can never get a proper explanation. I am a Christian for the last 40 years and its only in the last 10 years or so people started talking about a 'personal God' and a 'personal saviour'. Whats the difference betwwen these people and ordinary Christians like myself.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I don't. But even if that were the "real question", it's simply a descriptive fact that there are people (myself, for instance) who don't need your incredibly dubious metaphysics to flourish and live oontentedly. I really don't understand why you think your commitments support some privileged degree of happiness. Frankly, I think one of the illusions t ...[text shortened]... ith -- related to permanence of things, especially the self -- is a vehicle for suffering.

And as long as you do not see the need for God you will not reach out to him. It is only common sense. I, on the other hand, saw my need. You might say that he drew me in. I cannot really explain it further.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]But sure, I met all there is of God to meet.

My turn to laugh... 😀 I can say with utmost confidence that you have not met all there is of God.

It just turned out to be delusion and wishful thinking.

You mentioned something quite revealing in your last post, "that ol' feeling just isn't there anymore." Your faith was based on a fying the believer; that is, freeing his spirit from the bondage of his soul.[/b]

Look, if God didn't "reveal himself to me" after all the hoops I jumped through, and all the desperate prayers I said. If he remained hidden from me in spite of all the time I wasted with honest searching he can stuff it. Laugh all you like...real "Christian" of you. If you knew the pain I went through during that period of my life, trying desperately to continue to believe in spite of mounting evidence as to why I could not, the last thing you would be doing is laughing. You don't know so I don't expect you to behave as if you do, however.

Christians experience 'dry' periods because it is tiring to deny reality! Those 'dry' periods are nothing more than what is left of your rational brain screaming at you to end the charade.

If faith were more than a feeling you could prove the existence of God to me.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The only problem is that when I point out that the God portrayed in the Bible is not loving (by my definition) you will then proceed to redefine love based on God. So your argument becomes circular. ie:
1. Love is defined as God.
2. God is love therefore....

Lets be clear on one point. I view ALL of God's actions as being based in love. If sin is the breaking of the one and only commandment which is to love God and your fellow man, then God must oppose this element that was introduced into his creation. At first the God dealt with such sin by eliminating the sinner. Then he introduced Christ in order to change our hearts and spare the sinner while destroying the sin. Before Christ came dealing with sin seemed anything but loving. However, put yourself in his position. Do you care that sin occurs and spreads? If so, you must fight it. Grace was the goal and that could only be accomplished through Christ. It was a hard road to hoe but it was well worth it in my opinion.

I will also acknowledge that not every person of faith views these things the way I do. For exemple, a few Muslims I have talked to do not buy into the whole, "God is love" theology. However, that is not my view and I would not be a Christian if I believed the same way.

Having said that, when one opposes a theology such as mine, what are they opposing? Love your neighbor as thyself? Love God above all else? Love your enemies? You see, this is what we need more of in the world today so opposing me is like bashing your head into a wall. Why do it? You may say that I need to be shaken into reality but I argue that those who do not believe in the law of love are the ones who need to be shaken back into reality. Really love is ALL that matters and without it you are NOTHING!!!

Originally posted by whodey
I think this is the point I am trying to drive home. As a Muslim, you are given the right to take revenge, however, you are only encouraged to forgive if so inclined but you are not commanded to do so. Conversly, Christ commanded us to love our enemies. This different from Mohammads writings that make such forgiving merely a powerful suggestion. I think i ...[text shortened]... s us not to ask to many religious questions. I guess that does not bode well for any of us, no?

In summary you say that Jesus commanded you that if some one is trying to kill your wife or children you can't defend them, and you must leave them to die.

And if someone hit you in your face , you can't call the police.

And if you some country bombed your country you have to thank them.

Is that what you are saying?

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You are missing the whole picture. Islamic law doesn't allow Muslims to take their rights by themselves. They have to go to Judge to do so. Don't you do that in you life?

I don't understand what is your point. There is a law control the rights of each individual in the sociey. Are you aganist that?

So when Islam say if someone A killed another someone B the family of B have the right either A should be killed or released and pay compensation. What this has to do with the message of Love you are talking about. Does this contradict the message of Jesus? And Why?

Your understanding to the message of Love is very corrupted!!!
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For the Hadith you referenced (not verse, verses are only in Quran) I have went back to the two Arabic books, and I found that the word "Religion" added by the translator. It doesn't exist in the Arabic version.


What exists in the site:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.006

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 6:
Narrated Al-Mughira:

The Prophet said, "Allah has forbidden you ( 1 ) to be undutiful to your mothers (2) to withhold (what you should give) or (3) demand (what you do not deserve), and (4) to bury your daughters alive. And Allah has disliked that (A) you talk too much about others ( B), ask too many questions (in religion), or (C) waste your property."

You will see that the words "in religion" are between two parenthesis because the translator added them.

So the translation should be:
The Prophet said, "Allah has forbidden you ( 1 ) to be undutiful to your mothers (2) to withhold (what you should give) or (3) demand (what you do not deserve), and (4) to bury your daughters alive. And Allah has disliked that (A) you talk too much about others ( B), ask too many questions, or (C) waste your property."

And this also might not be accurate as will. Because the phrase "Ask too many Question" is "Kathrat Al Soal" in Arabic.

Kathrat = too much
Al Soal = could here have two meanings
1) Questioning
2) Begging Money

We as a Muslim take the literal Meaning without interpretation as much as we can. And if we need so then we refere to Quran or Hadith for interpretation. So what is forbbiden here is the general questioning in any field, or asking money.

But if we look at asking questions in religions, in the same web site there is another book:

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 3:
Knowledge
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html

If you read this book , you will see how the prophet ask and answer questions in religion and how he enouraged his companions to learn and ask. So questioning in religion could be excluded from this Hadith. Actually if you read about the other books about Marriage, Trading, and other day life stuff, you will find that most of them are in the form of question and answer.

I'm happy that you started to read. Hope you will not stop.

Originally posted by theprotectors
I know what name jews where using for the name of god, at the time of jesus and still are using "Eloheino"...
I have asked...
To think one religion is superior to anthor is wrong.
Lets face it theis two religons crhistianaty and the muslimic come one and the same religon and that is the jewish faith. And that is FACT.
The are alot of things wrong ople presive. And think. I am still lurning my self and still a hard.
And I read a lot.

muslims-"Blow people upp and you get go to paradice".

99% of Muslims don't say that.

commite suicide is forbidden in Islam. And killing is forbidden is Islam.

It is so stupid to say something like that. Please go learn.

I know what name jews where using for the name of god, at the time of jesus and still are using "Eloheino"...

Jesus Christ was speaking Aramaic. The name of GOD in Aramaic is "Allah".

Arabic and Aramiac have the same origin.

Originally posted by whodey
I think this is the point I am trying to drive home. As a Muslim, you are given the right to take revenge, however, you are only encouraged to forgive if so inclined but you are not commanded to do so. Conversly, Christ commanded us to love our enemies. This different from Mohammads writings that make such forgiving merely a powerful suggestion. I think i ...[text shortened]... s us not to ask to many religious questions. I guess that does not bode well for any of us, no?

As far as the web site you gave me, it was interesting but it did not refute the notions I mentioned above.

Because you still missing the picture. To make it clear:

You said:
I think this is the point I am trying to drive home. As a Muslim, you are given the right to take revenge, however, you are only encouraged to forgive if so inclined but you are not commanded to do so. Conversly, Christ commanded us to love our enemies. This different from Mohammads writings that make such forgiving merely a powerful suggestion.

What is the difference between a powerful suggestion as you see the Prophet Mohammed Teachings, and the command of Jesus Christ.

You say it is forbidden to you not to love your enemies. Does this means if you did hate your enemies you will be in Hell. If you ask for revenge will you go to hell.

If you didn't follow Jesus christ what will you lose?

If you said yes, then there is a difference.
If you said no , then there is no difference, they are both powerfull suggestion as you said.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b] muslims-"Blow people upp and you get go to paradice".

99% of Muslims don't say that.

commite suicide is forbidden in Islam. And killing is forbidden is Islam.

It is so stupid to say something like that. Please go learn.

I know what name jews where using for the name of god, at the time of jesus and still are using "Eloheino"...
...[text shortened]... amaic. The name of GOD in Aramaic is "Allah".

Arabic and Aramiac have the same origin.[/b]

Are there any verses in the Koran which can be easily misinterpreted by fanatics to (wrongly) justify suicide and murder?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Look, if God didn't "reveal himself to me" after all the hoops I jumped through, and all the desperate prayers I said. If he remained hidden from me in spite of all the time I wasted with honest searching he can stuff it. Laugh all you like...real "Christian" of you. If you knew the pain I went through during that period of my life, trying desperately ...[text shortened]... ade.

If faith were more than a feeling you could prove the existence of God to me.

I only laugh because the God I know is infinite and essentially incomprehensible, and I rejoice that I will spend eternity getting to know him as he really is. Of course I would not intentionally laugh at your pain.

Again, though, faith is not something a person needs to will into existence. Neither is it an intellectual assent vulnerable to contrary evidence. Nor is it a feeling or is it sustained by feelings. A person's will, intellect and feelings are each elements of the soul and the soul cannot produce faith on its own. Of course, if a person depends on their soul to do so, they are going to eventually hit a dry period or give up altogether.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). Faith is produced by the word of God. Not only that, but it is the word of God which divides the spirit from the soul, allowing one to distinguish what is spiritual and what is soulical. "The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit" (Heb. 4:12).

Hearing the word of God must be mingled with trust, of course, in order for it to produce faith through the impartation of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to rest in the human spirit, quite apart from a person's will, intellect and feelings, enlivening it. The main functions of the human spirit are intuition, communion, and conscience:

The *intuition* is totally counter to the mind. It is a direct knowing, while the intellect merely understands. It is through the intuition that God makes his will known to a believer. Discernment and revelation arise from the spirit, not the mind. The mind can only seek to understand what the intuition knows.

*Communion* has to do with intimate fellowship with God Himself, which can only take place in the regenerate human spirit. The spirit is deeper in our being than even our thoughts, feelings and volition, and it is in the depth of our spirit where God communicates Himself and pours out his love, etc.

*Conscience* is the function of the spirit which corrects and reprimands us when we fall short of the glory of God. In the regenerate human spirit dwells the Holy Spirit, and the holiness of God's Spirit condemns evil and justifies good, causing the believer's conscience to reprove sin and approve righteousness.

The various functions of the spirit aren't honed over night. Even with the help of God's word it takes a long time to learn to differentiate between the soul and the spirit. The Christian maturation process is precisely this, sanctification, wherein we eventually grow stronger in our spirit than we are in our soul. The stronger we are in the spirit, the more we hear from God directly and the more successful we are in obeying the Spirit, and thereby living a deeper life of faith, overflowing with the assurance of God's love.

"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you" (Matt. 7:7).

Originally posted by whodey
And as long as you do not see the need for God you will not reach out to him. It is only common sense. I, on the other hand, saw my need. You might say that he drew me in. I cannot really explain it further.

I commend you for one thing here, which amounts to being refreshingly honest enough to not pretend too hard like you have the preponderance of available evidence on your side. Basically, you admit that for you it comes down to holding a belief structure that makes you happy -- whether it's accurate and accords with reality or not,....ehhhh. So basically, there are aspects of Christianity that address your emotional needs as you see them.

I'll say that's fair enough. I think we are disposed to some level of emotional neediness, social creatures as we are. But what I'm trying to stress here is that there are any number of ways that one may successfully address his emotional needs. And personally, I find your religion as you have espoused it over time here to be very poorly conceived toward meeting any of my emotional needs. For instance, I think your view of essential human nature is insulting and debilitating; I think your moral outlook is at bottom arbitrary and perverts the virtues; I think your moral outlook is infantile (literally, I think it's childish, as in showing significant resemblance to the rule-based morality of constraint that is exuded by children of ages ~5-10 years or so); I think your religion is needlessly speciesist on some issues; and as I already mentioned, I think your conception of the self promotes suffering. These are just some quick points which I am not offering up for debate: I am merely listing them as descriptive facts pertaining to what I think to make a related point. My point is simply that holding your views, as I have come to understand them, wouldn't make me happy.

So, given that your main emphasis is on happiness, surely you can understand why I don't "reach out" to the object of your idolatry.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I commend you for one thing here, which amounts to being refreshingly honest enough to not pretend too hard like you have the preponderance of available evidence on your side. Basically, you admit that for you it comes down to holding a belief structure that makes you happy -- whether it's accurate and accords with reality or not,....ehhhh. So basically ness, surely you can understand why I don't "reach out" to the object of your idolatry.

I'm not sure but I think I've been insulted. :'(

That's no good, I can't be seen criying because that is infantile. Not only that crying is far to emotional. 😠

There, thats better.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Whodey, can you expand on this statement?
I have heard many people say it but I can never get a proper explanation. I am a Christian for the last 40 years and its only in the last 10 years or so people started talking about a 'personal God' and a 'personal saviour'. Whats the difference betwwen these people and ordinary Christians like myself.

What I am saying is that a relationship with God can come in a variety of ways just like a relationship with your fellow human being. Your relationship can be superficial or it can be a simple friendship or it can be a deep love affair. What you put into your relaionship is typically what you get out of it. For example, do you spend time in prayer and/or worship and/or reading God's word? These are examples in which I am able to communicate with my God and he with me and oppurtunites in which I can further deepen my relationship with my God.

From reading the Bible one thing is apparent. God wants our hearts not our service and that requires relationship. Do yourself a favor and grab a concordance and note all the times the Bible talks about the hearts of men and the importance given to the condition of man's heart. In fact, the Bible says that God goes around looking at your heart first and foremost and cares little else about other trivial things.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Are there any verses in the Koran which can be easily misinterpreted by fanatics to (wrongly) justify suicide and murder?

Say it ain't so. 😛