Blaming Religion

Originally posted by twhitehead
And the US's support of Israel is in part a result of Christians believing Israel to be a Christian Holy site.

But not all conflicts involving Muslims are related to Israel.

Perhaps there is some truth in what you say, however, it is not the whole truth. In terms of the relationship with Israel and the US, it appears to me that Israel is on a short list of allies in the region who is also a democracy. Most other countries in the region are Islamic dictatorships who view secular countries, such as the US, as infedels. Who would you ally yourself with?

It is also true that not all conflicts involving Muslims are related to Israel. There have been many and frequent fighting amongst themselves. However, the one thing they can all agree with is that the Zionists have got to go and go now. Then if this happens they can then resume fighting amongst themselves.

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps there is some truth in what you say, however, it is not the whole truth. In terms of the relationship with Israel and the US, it appears to me that Israel is on a short list of allies in the region who is also a democracy. Most other countries in the region are Islamic dictatorships who view secular countries, such as the US, as infedels. Who would ...[text shortened]... ve got to go and go now. Then if this happens they can then resume fighting amongst themselves.

Perhaps there is some truth in what you say, however, it is not the whole truth.

I see all what you said before about Christianity and fighting in the name of GOD has somehow changed now. I don't know what you call this.

I think you believe that Jesus will return to earth one day and fight the evil on earth in one final battle. I don't think Jesus will be living a Christ life as that time.

Most other countries in the region are Islamic dictatorships who view secular countries, such as the US, as infedels. Who would you ally yourself with?

What country in the region match your statement?

Remember you are talking about "countires with Islamic dictatorships".

There have been many and frequent fighting amongst themselves.

I wish you can support this statement with a historical event. I mean a specific fighting between Muslims in the Area before the start of the nation of Isreal, and the US involvement in the Area.

Remeber you said: "A frequent fighting".

Originally posted by whodey
Most other countries in the region are Islamic dictatorships who view secular countries, such as the US, as infedels.

Surely you made that one up? Can you list the countries in the region and tell us which match your description?

Who would you ally yourself with?
I don't see the US providing so much support to Zambia. All the countries in the region are Christian dictatorships. When are they going to ally themselves with us?
I personally believe that there are two key reasons for the US's support of Israel.
1. Religion.
2. Destabilization of the region to stop an arab monopoly on oil.

It is also true that not all conflicts involving Muslims are related to Israel. There have been many and frequent fighting amongst themselves. However, the one thing they can all agree with is that the Zionists have got to go and go now. Then if this happens they can then resume fighting amongst themselves.
You seem to think that all Muslims are in the middle east.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Perhaps there is some truth in what you say, however, it is not the whole truth.

I see all what you said before about Christianity and fighting in the name of GOD has somehow changed now. I don't know what you call this.

I think you believe that Jesus will return to earth one day and fight the evil on earth in one final battle. I don't think Jesus will be living a Christ life as that time.

What I am saying is that the US government is a secular government. This does not mean, however, that there are not Christian lobbiests, such as the Christian right, who influence political thought. All groups/organizations are free to lobby the government. However, some have more influenc than others due to money/power issues. Islam is free to do the same.

In terms of Christ coming back, Jesus says something interesting about his return.

Matthew 24:22 says, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elects sake those days will be shortened."

Here we see Jesus indicating that his return is necessary, otherwise humanity would destroy itself. It is true that when he does return, the era of grace is over. God will then have exhausted the era of grace and we will again return to OT type of judgements regarding sin. In the meantime, however, he gives the sinner every oppurtunity to repent.

It is somewhat of a paradox. On the one hand, we see God destroying wicked men to help prevent them from going down a road that would cause them to destroy themselves. On the other hand, we see God in the NT allowing wicked men to travel down that road of self destruction only to intervene personally at the last second so as to disallow humanities ultimate destruction. However, the bottom line is whether God intervenes or not in terms of man's wickedness, the ultimate fate of such men is destruction whether it be at the hand of God or of man himself. Simply put, sin brings death.

Originally posted by ahosyney

Most other countries in the region are Islamic dictatorships who view secular countries, such as the US, as infedels. Who would you ally yourself with?

What country in the region match your statement?

Remember you are talking about "countires with Islamic dictatorships".

I was referring to such countries as Syria and Iran, for example. However, it really matters little in terms of whether the people can vote democratically or not when I think about it. For example, did not the Palastinian people elect Hamas? What does the West have in common with Hamas? Does not the US view them as terrorists? What it boils down to is that there is such a divide between the West and Islam that the two are polar opposites. For example, one enjoys seperation of church and state and the other prefers Sharia law. As a result, one government is viewed as infidels and the other conforming to the teachings of Mohammad. In this respect, Israel is more like the US who also prefers a secular government.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why is it that when a Muslim does something bad it is blamed on Islam and he is referred to as an Islamist but when a Christian does something bad nobody ever says anything about Christianity? Is it because the media is biased?
Many of the major "bad people" in the world in the last century were religious and claimed that their actions were supported by ...[text shortened]... ke the blame but if a democracy does something bad then nobody points the finger at democracy.

It amazes me that we think things like religion are the blame when
it is clear inside or outside of religion poeple do things that are bad.
We blame SUV, we blame guns, we blame religion, we blame white
people, black people, rich people, poor people, and on and on. It
should be clear we should take the labels off and just say people
can and do bad things and they use whatever label they can to
justify their bad actions.
Kelly

Originally posted by ahosyney

There have been many and frequent fighting amongst themselves.

I wish you can support this statement with a historical event. I mean a specific fighting between Muslims in the Area before the start of the nation of Isreal, and the US involvement in the Area.

Remeber you said: "A frequent fighting".[/b]

When I said this I was thinking off the top of my head regarding such violence as sectarian violence in Iraq between Sunni and Shia. I was also thinking of fighting between Hamas and Fatah in Palastine. In terms of countries going to war I was thinking of such wars as the Iran/Iraq conflict.

I looked at Wiki and this is what it had to say.

"At various times many Shia groups have faced persecution. WHile the dominant strand in modern Sunni dogma regards Shiism as a valid madhab, following Al Azhar, some Sunnis both now and in the past have regarded it as beyond the pale, and attacked its adherants. In modern times notable examples include the bombing campaigns by the Sunni Sipah-e-sahaba and Shia Tehrik-e-Jafria, two small extremist groups against Shia or Sunni mosques in Pakistan, the persecution of Hazara under the Taliban, and the bloody attacks with Zarqawi and his followers against Shia in Iraq.

The Ahmadiyya see themselves as Muslims, but are seen by many other Muslims as non-Muslims and "heretics". Armed groups, led by the umbrella organization Khatme Nabrawat or "Finality of Priesthood", have launched violent attacks against mosques in Bangladesh.

Certain groups, the Takfir wal Hijra and the GIA today, follow takfirist doctrines, regarding almost all the Muslims as infidels whose blood may be shed. An example is the Bentalha massacre.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that being Muslim causes you to be violent or that it causes you to fight amongst your brothers, rather, I am only pointing out that it does happen. My theology says that this is the case because we are born with a fallen nature as where Islamic theology teaches that we are not born with a fallen nature. In fact, perhaps there have been other men other than Jesus who have lived sinless lives according to Islamic theology? However, historically, does this appear to be the case?

Originally posted by whodey
When I said this I was thinking off the top of my head regarding such violence as sectarian violence in Iraq between Sunni and Shia. I was also thinking of fighting between Hamas and Fatah in Palastine. In terms of countries going to war I was thinking of such wars as the Iran/Iraq conflict.

I looked at Wiki and this is what it had to say.

"At various ...[text shortened]... es according to Islamic theology? However, historically, does this appear to be the case?

I was under the impression that some believe all prophets lead sinless
lives otherwise god couldn't use them. This isn’t what I believe but I
have heard it said before.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I was under the impression that some believe all prophets lead sinless
lives otherwise god couldn't use them. This isn’t what I believe but I
have heard it said before.
Kelly

Perhaps this is ahosenys position? It reminds me of watching the movie Malcum X. In the movie he converted to Islam and was convinced that the spiritual leader or prophet of the Muslim movement in the US was "perfect". That is before he stumbled across the skeletons in his closet thus exposing his hypocrisy. The spiritual leader then sought to kill him after Malcum confronted him about it and later did. No doubt those who kill in the name of Allah also view their spiritual leaders who are calling them to do so as "perfect". It would then be akin to a Christian being told by Jesus to do something because Christians view him to be the only perfect man in history. I suppose that those who believe such lies will end up finding the hard way as Malcum did. Hopefully it will not cost them their lives as well, however.

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps this is ahosenys position? It reminds me of watching the movie Malcum X. In the movie he converted to Islam and was convinced that the spiritual leader or prophet of the Muslim movement in the US was "perfect". That is before he stumbled across the skeletons in his closet thus exposing his hypocrisy. The spiritual leader then sought to kill him af ...[text shortened]... g the hard way as Malcum did. Hopefully it will not cost them their lives as well, however.

Yes, where we put our faith is very important.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, where we put our faith is very important.
Kelly

I think those who are "religious" have the choice between exalting God or man. Who should we follow, God or man? For many who are "religious" the unfortunate choice is man. For example, I listen to my pastor, however, if he strays in his theology in comparison to God's word then I must call him on it and/or leave. I must realize that he may hear from God or may be one of his children, but he is in no way perfect. For others that do not recognize man as flawed, however, they will adhere more to what a religous leader is telling them more than what their God has to say about things. For me, this is when a religion becomes a cult. Jim Jones comes to mind or that other guy in Waco Texas. I always keep in mind Christ's challenge that if you love anything or anyone above me, including your spiritual advisor, you are not worthy of me. It goes back to the command of loving your God above all else. The real question is, who is your God?

Originally posted by whodey
I was referring to such countries as Syria and Iran, for example. However, it really matters little in terms of whether the people can vote democratically or not when I think about it. For example, did not the Palastinian people elect Hamas? What does the West have in common with Hamas? Does not the US view them as terrorists? What it boils down to is th ...[text shortened]... of Mohammad. In this respect, Israel is more like the US who also prefers a secular government.

First you said most counties in the Area , and them you mentioned only two counties, of course because they are the ones mentioned in the Media.

Second: Calling Syria having an Islamic dictatorship is the most funny thing I have ever hear. It tell me either you intentionally try to misslead whoever read your posts, or you don't know what you are talking about. And in both cases you are not in a position to talk in this matter.

The system in Syria is pure secular one. It has nothing to do with Islam. The presedent of Syria is from a Sheia sect called "Alaween", this sect worship "Ali" the cousin of Prophet Mohammed and consider him a GOD. And of course this faith has nothing to do with Islam or Islamic faith (Even Ali himself didn't agree with them in his life). And what ever motivate Syria action has nothing to do with Islam.

----------------------

The remaining part of your post doesn't deserve an answer, because I don't think you know anything about what you are talking about.

Originally posted by ahosyney
First you said most counties in the Area , and them you mentioned only two counties, of course because they are the ones mentioned in the Media.

Second: Calling Syria having an Islamic dictatorship is the most funny thing I have ever hear. It tell me either you intentionally try to misslead whoever read your posts, or you don't know what you are talking ...[text shortened]... rve an answer, because I don't think you know anything about what you are talking about.

Really? Lets hear what WIki says about the government of Syria shall we?

"Politics of Syria takes place in a framework of a parlamentary republic, whereby the power is in the hands of the President of Syria and the ruling Baath party. Officially, Syria is a parliamentary republic. IN reality, however, it is an authoritairian regime that exhibits only the forms of a democratic system. Although citizens ostensibly vote for the President and members of parliment, they do not have the right to change the government. Political opposition to the president is not tolerated. Syria has been in under a state of emergency since 1963 and have justified the state of emergency by the state of war that exists with Israel and by continuing threats posed by terrorist groups."

So there you have it. Officially they are not a dictatorship but in reality they are. Officially they are not an Islamic theocracy, but in reality they are just like Iran due to their underlying religious fanatism that prohibits them from accepting Israel as a nation. Leave the blinder on if you must.

Originally posted by whodey
Really? Lets hear what WIki says about the government of Syria shall we?

"Politics of Syria takes place in a framework of a parlamentary republic, whereby the power is in the hands of the President of Syria and the ruling Baath party. Officially, Syria is a parliamentary republic. IN reality, however, it is an authoritairian regime that exhibits only tism that prohibits them from accepting Israel as a nation. Leave the blinder on if you must.

I don't know what are you trying to say. Where is the word Islam in what you caught from Wiki. I don't know what to say: where did you get this from:

but in reality they are just like Iran due to their underlying religious fanatism that prohibits them from accepting Israel as a nation.

Where did this reality came from? Have you been their? Did you know how the life in Syria is and how does it match Islam?

Give a single reference that support this claim. Because it is just a claim. And even of it is true. What this has to do with Islam?

Here I say it clear: Both Alayeen and Sheia are not Muslims? If you don't want to accept that it is up to you.

Also you can help yourself and search for the Baath party and what its directions. Then you will know that the government in Syria is a pure secular government!!!!!

Please you don't have to say something that is not true to support your ideas. No one ask you to change your ideas. But this way you continue following the same approach you do with your fiath.

Originally posted by ahosyney
The system in Syria is pure secular one. It has nothing to do with Islam. The presedent of Syria is from a Sheia sect called "Alaween", this sect worship "Ali" the cousin of Prophet Mohammed and consider him a GOD. And of course this faith has nothing to do with Islam or Islamic faith (Even Ali himself didn't agree with them in his life). And what ever motivat ...[text shortened]... erve an answer, because I don't think you know anything about what you are talking about.[/b]

So because the president of Syria is from the "Alaween" sect and worships "Ali" he is not a Muslim? Is not Ali a cousin of Mohammad? How can you say it then has nothing to do with Islam since Mohammad was its founder? I wonder if he thinks the same? Whether he has different religious beliefs regarding the Muslim faith does not exclude him from it does it? Is there a body within Islam designated to be the excommunication police much like the Catholic church?

Whether or not he may have heretical beliefs in your eyes is irrelavent in terms of sharing a similar religious conviction that the Jews have got to go because the Holy Land is a holy Islamic site.