Spirituality
02 Sep 13
02 Sep 13
Featured in the June/July edition of 'Mother Earth News' (and in the video above) is an intentional Christian Community known as Brazos de Dios (Arms of God). They consist of about 45 families in an agricultural cooperative situated on 510 acres near Waco, Texas. Similar to anabaptist groups like the Amish, they eschew most modern technology to live a self-sufficient lifestyle based around hand crafts and lo-tech agriculture. Far from being backward and impoverished, they seem to have gained far more than they've lost through this lifestyle choice.
But those particulars are not my point here. For you Christians out there, it has been (and remains) my contention that this is what the Kingdom of God looks like in practice. These people have severed their complicity with Mammon, swept the moneychangers from the temple, and are living a simple life in the service of God. And like so many Christians here, they don't sit around fretting about a personal, individualistic and atomized form of salvation (as if there could be such a thing). Salvation (if it exists) is very much a social phenomenon. You cannot actively collaborate with Mammon in every aspect of your lives and expect to be 'saved' in spite of it. Salvation (if it exists) can only come through the realization of the Kingdom. And the Kingdom will only be realized when Christians quit collaborating with Mammon, irrevocably sever their ties with it, and commit to the collective hard work of helping to inaugurate the Kingdom. When you do that, then the spirit of God (if it exists) will flow into that Kingdom and you will collectively know what salvation looks like. It won't be some atomized, otherworldly phenomenon. It will be a collaborative and social phenomenon situated in this world, entirely apart from the fallen world of Mammon.
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02 Sep 13
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Originally posted by rwingettVery nice, but it seems to be missing something. Jesus commanded his followers to go out into all the world and make disciples, not isolate themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQOYzQtMJM
Featured in the June/July edition of 'Mother Earth News' (and in the video above) is an intentional Christian Community known as Brazos de Dios (Arms of God). They consist of about 45 families in an agricultural cooperative situated on 510 acres near Waco, Texas. Similar to anabaptist groups like the Amish, they social phenomenon situated in this world, entirely apart from the fallen world of Mammon.
Many Christians are tossed about by technology and temptation, etc., but here is where they need to remain strong in the Lord and allow Christ to live through them. They are commanded to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves.
Jesus came for sinners not the righteous. Christians are to mingle with the unbelievers, but not sin themselves.
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterAh, but this is where your powers of observation are lower than that of a serpent. For they do NOT isolate themselves from the world. They have just isolated themselves from the world of Mammon. They go to great lengths to interact with the neighboring people, and in that fashion serve as the proverbial shining city on the hill.
Very nice, but it seems to be missing something. Jesus commanded his followers to go out into all the world and make disciples, not isolate themselves.
Many Christians are tossed about by technology and temptation, etc., but here is where they need to remain strong in the Lord and allow Christ to live through them. They are commanded to be wise as serpe ...[text shortened]... inners not the righteous. Christians are to mingle with the unbelievers, but not sin themselves.
http://www.homesteadheritage.com/
The above link is one of the ways they facilitate this interaction. Among other things, they hold classes on the reclamation of the nearly lost art of craftsmanship. By doing so, they show others how they, too, can break the chains that shackle them to the all devouring maw of Mammon.
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02 Sep 13
Originally posted by rwingettI'm confused.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQOYzQtMJM
Featured in the June/July edition of 'Mother Earth News' (and in the video above) is an intentional Christian Community known as Brazos de Dios (Arms of God). They consist of about 45 families in an agricultural cooperative situated on 510 acres near Waco, Texas. Similar to anabaptist groups like the Amish, they ...[text shortened]... social phenomenon situated in this world, entirely apart from the fallen world of Mammon.
You don't believe in God but you think that us believers would be better off living this lifestyle 'if he did exist'.
Just curious if you live this way? Off the grid and eschewing all modern technology, money and all that. My guess would be no. You obviously use a computer and that costs money to buy and money to operate. I don't know a lot about what they are made of but I do know they contain natural resources inside them. Sorry if I got off track from your intended post but I see some hypocrisy here. You are a proponent of the creation (earth) and how humans abuse it correct? I apologize if I am wrong.
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by boononVerily, brother boonon, we are all sinners. But recognizing that fact is a prerequisite for atonement. Only by recognizing that our daily collaboration with Mammon is what sustains it, can we hope to break its chains. Moses himself never made it to the Promised Land, but he did what he could to lead his people there.
I'm confused.
You don't believe in God but you think that us believers would be better off living this lifestyle 'if he did exist'.
Just curious if you live this way? Off the grid and eschewing all modern technology, money and all that. My guess would be no. You obviously use a computer and that costs money to buy and money to operate. I don't know a ...[text shortened]... oponent of the creation (earth) and how humans abuse it correct? I apologize if I am wrong.
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02 Sep 13
Originally posted by rwingettOk, I like your honesty.
Verily, brother boonon, we are all sinners. But recognizing that fact is a prerequisite for atonement. Only by recognizing that our daily collaboration with Mammon is what sustains it, can we hope to break its chains. Moses himself never made it to the Promised Land, but he did what he could to lead his people there.
To your other point I would say that the bible states that money is not a sin in itself but that the love of money is. I would agree that everyone living together and working towards the common good of man is something everyone should want. However I don't see that utopia here on earth until Jesus returns.
Just my thoughts..
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by boononI think you are profoundly mistaken in that regard. Especially in your interpretation of what it means for 'Jesus to return'. You cling to the antiquated notion that Jesus will return in the flesh, thereby reducing the event to being nothing more than a supernatural parlor trick. No, brother boonon, his second coming will take a much subtler manifestation.
Ok, I like your honesty.
To your other point I would say that the bible states that money is not a sin in itself but that the love of money is. I would agree that everyone living together and working towards the common good of man is something everyone should want. However I don't see that utopia here on earth until Jesus returns.
Just my thoughts..
His second coming will be of the spirit. When mankind has been inspired (en-spirited) by Jesus to start "living together and working towards the common good of man", the you will know that he has returned. When mankind follows the example of the people of Brazos de Dios and turn their backs on Mammon, then you will know that Jesus lives in the hearts of man. Make no mistake, brother boonon, this is how the second coming will manifest itself. Jesus will not deliver the Kingdom to you on a silver platter, but he will inspire you to do the necessary groundwork yourself.
As for the nature of money, do not be deceived. This talk of money itself not being a sin is the talk of people who imagine they can have things both ways. That they can have their cake and eat it too. That they can actively collaborate in the dealings of Mammon on a daily basis and still find an individualized and atomized form of salvation. They cannot. Only by completely breaking the chains of Mammon will you be able to realize the Kingdom. I interpret your lack of faith in mankind's ability to do so as a lack of faith in the power of Jesus to sufficiently inspire us for the task.
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02 Sep 13
Originally posted by rwingettI have to disagree on all points.
I think you are profoundly mistaken in that regard. Especially in your interpretation of what it means for 'Jesus to return'. You cling to the antiquated notion that Jesus will return in the flesh, thereby reducing the event to being nothing more than a supernatural parlor trick. No, brother boonon, his second coming will take a much subtler manifestation. ...[text shortened]... to do so as a lack of faith in the power of Jesus to sufficiently inspire us for the task.
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by boononOK, let me ask you: why do you think that despite waiting for 2,000+ years, the Kingdom still has not come? Hmmm? It's clear in the bible that people expected the Kingdom to come within their own lifetime. But it didn't happen. And still hasn't happened. And given your approach, it never will happen. Why do you suppose that is?
I have to disagree on all points.
It's because the people of Jesus' time didn't take the necessary steps to inaugurate the Kingdom. They didn't do their own part. They thought they could continue collaborating with Mammon on a daily basis and expect that Jesus would just pop by one day and drop the kingdom into their sorry laps. Well, guess what? It hasn't quite worked out that way, has it? You have to meet Him halfway. He will provide the necessary inspiration, but you're going to do the heavy lifting yourself. As the people of Brazos de Dios are doing. It's a social and cooperative effort. By rebuilding honest communities with your fellow man and by living sustainably with Nature itself, you are making yourselves worthy of a rapprochement with god (whatever that may be).
Go forth, boonon, and preach the word.
02 Sep 13
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettThis is all well and good, but it sounds and is elitist. This alleged renewal of the spirit presumably works for Christians but not for say, atheists or Agnostics or Hindu's or Jaynes or aborigines of any country. None of those religions or non-religions talk about a return of Jesus because they are not in that religion. Just like Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses, this so-called heaven of theirs is for them alone and screw the rest of humanity. That alone makes the whole affair non spiritual.
OK, let me ask you: why do you think that despite waiting for 2,000+ years, the Kingdom still has not come? Hmmm? It's clear in the bible that people expected the Kingdom to come within their own lifetime. But it didn't happen. And still hasn't happened. And given your approach, it never will happen. Why do you suppose that is?
It's because the people o prochement with god (whatever that may be).
Go forth, boonon, and preach the word.
A real god would not reward converts who just believe in this god, and then reject 99% of all humanity and doom them forever or whatever christians believe happens to non-christians.
A real god would not play favorites since you think this god created all humans and all life on Earth.
That would be like humans having an ant farm with thousands of ants in a large man made ant house. Then looking at some ants we consider special, maybe because it has more black than red or whatever, then burning the 99% of the rest because they didn't have the right spots. That whole concept of rejection is a wholly human attribute. It just denigrates whatever a god really is, forcing human traits on it.
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02 Sep 13
Originally posted by rwingettI have found that its not worth arguing with people like you, so I will not waste my time. I will say that you are wrong on everything you wrote. You do not understand scripture, nor do you believe it. I would dare say that you don't understand yourself either. If you did you wouldn't preach to everyone on how the world should live and then live exactly the opposite of what you preach. It's called hypocrisy. You may paint it in other words as you did in your other post, I suppose it makes you feel less guilty. I would compare you to Al Gore. Preaching about global warming and such while he probaly leaves the largest carbon footprint out there while living in his mansion and traveling the world in his cars and jets. Take a long look in the mirror, you deceive no one here but yourself.
OK, let me ask you: why do you think that despite waiting for 2,000+ years, the Kingdom still has not come? Hmmm? It's clear in the bible that people expected the Kingdom to come within their own lifetime. But it didn't happen. And still hasn't happened. And given your approach, it never will happen. Why do you suppose that is?
It's because the people o ...[text shortened]... prochement with god (whatever that may be).
Go forth, boonon, and preach the word.
As far as preaching goes, I have never been one to stand on a soap box to castigate the masses. However I will never deny the gospel and salvation of my Lord Jesus Christ.
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02 Sep 13
Originally posted by rwingettI have heard of groups like you mention, that believe the world must be changed by believers in Christ and usher him in.
OK, let me ask you: why do you think that despite waiting for 2,000+ years, the Kingdom still has not come? Hmmm? It's clear in the bible that people expected the Kingdom to come within their own lifetime. But it didn't happen. And still hasn't happened. And given your approach, it never will happen. Why do you suppose that is?
It's because the people o ...[text shortened]... prochement with god (whatever that may be).
Go forth, boonon, and preach the word.
This is very flawed. Since the bible clearly states that Satan is the god of this world, it will never happen. In fact, as 2 Timothy claims, men will wax worse and worse.
No, my friend, we follow the leading of Jesus Christ, He will come back when the his Father says it is time. Why so long in coming? I don't know and it does not matter because Christians are "sealed" with the holy spirit of promise. All I know is that when he does return, if I am dead he will raise me up, then comes a time where all hell will break loose.
The god of this world will be destroyed and the earth will be restored back to it's original plan in the garden...
1 Thess 5:2-5
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
NKJV
Rom 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet
NIV
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by checkbaiter'.. original plan in the garden .." ? Do you have a reference for this? None of the passages you quoted supports this 'garden' business. I take it you mean Garden of Eden.
I have heard of groups like you mention, that believe the world must be changed by believers in Christ and usher him in.
This is very flawed. Since the bible clearly states that Satan is the god of this world, it will never happen. In fact, as 2 Timothy claims, men will wax worse and worse.
No, my friend, we follow the leading of Jesus Christ, He will ...[text shortened]... a thief.
NKJV
Rom 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet
NIV
Christ gave two parables about the Kingdom of Heaven and likened it to a mustard seed and leaven or yeast. Both parables were meant to illustrate that the Kingdom will start off very small and then become very large and take over everything. How does this fit into your doctrine. To me these two parables seem to contradict what you say.