Spirituality
14 Aug 09
15 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by daniel58Another mistranslation from your Holey Book.
No because it's true and it won't change, it would by lying if we said different.
Jesus said that you would end up in a garbage dump near Jerusalem if you didn't follow his teachings. The proper name of it was mistranslated to be hell. Where are the plagues?
15 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by caissad4yes this is correct, Christ was referring to the valley of hinnom, the Greek form, g'henna
Another mistranslation from your Holey Book.
Jesus said that you would end up in a garbage dump near Jerusalem if you didn't follow his teachings. The proper name of it was mistranslated to be hell. Where are the plagues?
(Gehenna) [Gr. form of the Heb. Geh Hinnom, “Valley of Hinnom”].
This name appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and whereas many translators take the liberty to render it by the word “hell,” a number of modern translations transliterate the word from the Greek geenna.—Mt 5:22, Ro, Mo, ED, NW, BC (Spanish), NC (Spanish), also the footnotes of Da and RS.
The deep, narrow Valley of Hinnom, later known by this Greek name, lay to the S and SW of ancient Jerusalem and is the modern-day Wadi er Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom). Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh engaged in idolatrous worship there, which included the making of human sacrifices by fire to Baal. (2Ch 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jer 7:31, 32; 32:35) Later, to prevent such activities there in the future, faithful King Josiah had the place of idolatrous worship polluted, particularly the section called Topheth.—2Ki 23:10.
Not a symbol of everlasting torment.
Jesus Christ associated fire with Gehenna (Mt 5:22; 18:9; Mr 9:47, 48), as did the disciple James, the only Biblical writer besides Matthew, Mark, and Luke to use the word. (Jas 3:6) Some commentators endeavour to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiahs reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that Gods Son, in discussing divine judgement, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. It may be noted that God prophetically decreed that the Valley of Hinnom would serve as a place for mass disposal of dead bodies rather than for the torture of live victims. (Jer 7:32, 33; 19:2, 6, 7, 10, 11)
Therefore, the Biblical evidence concerning Gehenna generally parallels the traditional view presented by rabbinic and other sources. That view is that the Valley of Hinnom was used as a place for the disposal of waste matter from the city of Jerusalem. (At Mt 5:30 Ph renders gehenna as “rubbish heap.&rdquo😉 Concerning “Gehinnom,” the Jewish commentator David Kimhi (1160-1235?), in his comment on Psalm 27:13, gives the following historical information: “And it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.”
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by buckkyActually there is no such thing as a burning hell. The Bible speaks of the Lake of Fire that death is eventually thrown into. It simply means being destroyed forever or the 2nd death. Rev 20:14,20 & 21:8.
Who among us could stand to watch anyone burn in agony ? No matter how bad the person was. Let's say Hitler for example. I could not stand to watch any other human be in constant torment regardless of the crime. Just on a simple human level I feel most feel the same way. Only a sadist could conduct such punishment. Maybe the Christian version of Hell needs to ...[text shortened]... ybe that's over the top also. Anything but the Burning forever thing would be and improvement.
And satan is also hurled into it. Rev 20:10. So think about what this really means!!!!!
Also Hell in the Bible is the common grave we all go to.
16 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75Why do you think burning in hell is taught in so many churches? Is it to scare people into giving up 10 percent of their earnings to the church, or maybe they just like the idea of people being tortured that don't believe like they do?
Actually there is no such thing as a burning hell. The Bible speaks of the Lake of Fire that death is eventually thrown into. It simply means being destroyed forever or the 2nd death. Rev 20:14,20 & 21:8.
And satan is also hurled into it. Rev 20:10. So think about what this really means!!!!!
Also Hell in the Bible is the common grave we all go to.
17 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by joe beyserAre you a logical child or an illogical adult?
Why do you think burning in hell is taught in so many churches? Is it to scare people into giving up 10 percent of their earnings to the church, or maybe they just like the idea of people being tortured that don't believe like they do?
17 Aug 09
Originally posted by joe beyserWell other then the warnings that Jesus and the apostles gave that after they were gone there were going to be many false teachings let into congregations, there should be no reason it should be taught in their churches. It is a pagan teaching from Egypt & Babylon.
Why do you think burning in hell is taught in so many churches? Is it to scare people into giving up 10 percent of their earnings to the church, or maybe they just like the idea of people being tortured that don't believe like they do?
17 Aug 09
6 edits
Originally posted by galveston75This post is not a wholesale endorsement of the conept that babies will be tormented forever, as title "Burn Baby Burn" seems to imply.
Well other then the warnings that Jesus and the apostles gave that after they were gone there were going to be many false teachings let into congregations, there should be no reason it should be taught in their churches. It is a pagan teaching from Egypt & Babylon.
The principle of Roman Catholicism was to mix into the pure Gospel teaching things which would be appealing to the people, largely from their pagan backrounds. This they thought would make the Gospel message more palatable and more popular.'
The Jehovah's Witnesses do exactly the same thing. They intertain a hope that if they teach against the scriptural truth of eternal punishment in the lake of fire then people will like them more and join their ranks.
Rather than admit that there are some things in the Bible which are just hard to accept to the natural man, like eternal damnation, the Jehovah's Witnesses labor to make the New Testament more palatable and appetizing by removing the offensive teaching.
They falsly say that eternal retribution is a pagan belief hoping the masses will breath a sigh of relief and adopt Russell's "kinder and gentlier" eschatology.
But Jesus said that if we were ashamed of Him and His words in this adulterous generation, He would be ashamed of us when He comes in His glory and in the glory of the holy angels.
The Jehavah's Witness leaven the word of God as much or more than Roman Catholicism and seek to make their own popularized version of the New Testament more favorable.
It is better to tell people as it is with the wisdom and love for their souls that Christ manifested. If you don't like the teaching of eternal damnation, the Person you have to blame is Jesus Christ.
It was from His mouth that the latter epistles and Revelation base thier revelation on. And it was His mouth that mostly gave the world the concept of eternal retribution to the unsaved.
17 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillNo sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
This post is not a wholesale endorsement of the conept that babies will be tormented forever, as title "Burn Baby Burn" seems to imply.
The principle of Roman Catholicism was to mix into the pure Gospel teaching things which would be appealing to the people, largely from their pagan backrounds. This they thought would make the Gospel message more palatabl is mouth that mostly gave the world the concept of eternal retribution to the unsaved.
And "thank you" so much admitting that the Catholics did let ones in that had pagan beliefs and accepted those beliefs. YES!!!!
17 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75he didn't say they let people in because they "were" pagans but "because of their pagan BACKGROUNDS", I don't think their is any evidence that people said the babies will go to hell, at least as a whole, I don't believe it anyways, and I'm a Catholic.
No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
And "thank you" so much admitting that the Catholics did let ones in that had pagan beliefs and accepted those beliefs. YES!!!!
17 Aug 09
Originally posted by daniel58No he said that they were let in and allowed to mix their pagen bliefs and any "history books" you'll find say the same thing...Sorry, I'm not making this up but that's the truth about the Catholic religion.
he didn't say they let people in because they "were" pagans but "because of their pagan BACKGROUNDS", I don't think their is any evidence that people said the babies will go to hell, at least as a whole, I don't believe it anyways, and I'm a Catholic.
17 Aug 09
6 edits
Originally posted by galveston75==================================
No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
And "thank you" so much admitting that the Catholics did let ones in that had pagan beliefs and accepted those beliefs. YES!!!!
No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
And "thank you" so much admitting that the Catholics did let ones in that had pagan beliefs and accepted those beliefs. YES!!!!
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Hold on. What do you mean "admitting" ... as if I have been concealing it? I spoke to this weeks ago. I need no prodding. And I have no intention of concealing anything helpful to a needed understanding of church history.
But, while we are on the subject of Catholicism's leavening, I don't believe you ever responded to my request of weeks ago. You seemed to imply that Hislop's book "The Two Babylons" had some things to say about the pagan origins of the teaching of the Trinity. I asked you to point out where in The Two Babylons there is such a discussion.
You never did. While we're talking about "admitting" things, why don't you admit that Alexander Hislop did not charge the teaching of the Trinity with having pagan origins?
Or, solidly shut my mouth by showing me where in the book he wrote such things against the Trinity. If you do then you'll be treated to an apology from me.
Now, to the other matter. Yes, it is my opinion that the Jehovah's Witnesses go through a lot of mental gymnastics to "exorcize' the revelation of eternal perdition in a firey punishment from the New Testament.
If we were to get into a debate about it I would stand back amazed at how many tricks, twists, flips, and wigglings you would perform on Scripture to try to "kill the beast" of a firey eternal punishment.
Think of the sheer labor you have to go through to arrive at a plausible yet rather flimsy set of alternative understandings to verses which are pretty clear.
Do you trust people to read the Bible apart from Watchtower materials to deduce that there is no teaching of eternal punishment in Scripture ? Would you dare a house student just to pick up thier Bible and start to read the book of Revelation without filtering it through Watchtower explanations?
I think the Jehovah's Witnesses will hope that as Charles Russell was allayed of his dread of the plain words of Scripture about this, so the prospective recruit of thier outreach will also be.
But if someone dreads the prospect of eternal perdition of those not justified by the redemption of Christ, it is because the Word of God intends for us to be concerned about. It is not an accident.
Abuses of the teaching are unfortunate. The answer is not to pretend that it is not taught in the Bible. Rather the love of Christ and the security of Christ as salvation is the answer to abuses of teaching.
"And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and the Father are one." (John 10:28-30)
Rather than twist the Bible to try to rid its utterance of eternal perdition, it is more profitable to teach the assurance of forgiveness in Christ's redemption and His power to keep them in His hand - in the Father's hand.
But you cannot give what you do not have. And Jehovah's Witnesses usually do not have Christ as their asssurance. That is because your hearts have been insulated against asking Christ for that assurance. Better not to pray to the Lord Jesus, according to Watchtower. Better pray to Jehovah His Father.
The tragedy of this deception is that the more you exalt Jesus the happier the Father will be.
18 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillOh yeah your right. I forgot about that memo that was sent out to us all that we need more members so lets all say there is no hell to burn in and that will trick everyone into wanting to be a JW. Your dead on as usual!!!!
[b]==================================
No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
And "thank you" so much admitting that the Catholics did let ones in that had pagan beliefs and accepted those beliefs. YES!!!!
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Hold on. What do ...[text shortened]... ion is that the more you exalt Jesus the happier the Father will be.[/b]
18 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75==============================
No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
And "thank you" so much admitting that the Catholics did let ones in that had pagan beliefs and accepted those beliefs. YES!!!!
No sir..You are absolutly wrong on that. Show me one ounce of proof of that.....You can't because it's your opinion.
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Tell me this. In your typical instruction books on going from house to house - Which do they advize you to teach first:
1.) There is no eternal punishment of a lake of fire or of a hell.
2.) The Trinity is of pagan origin
18 Aug 09
I and the Father are one." (John 10:28-30)
Such a simple scripture to understand and you don't get it Jay. But in case you need help it means they are one in their plans, thoughts, and goals for the heaven and earth. No different then a government with all it's officials saying that have one goal in mind for it's citizens.
18 Aug 09
Originally posted by galveston75================================
Oh yeah your right. I forgot about that memo that was sent out to us all that we need more members so lets all say there is no hell to burn in and that will trick everyone into wanting to be a JW. Your dead on as usual!!!!
Oh yeah your right. I forgot about that memo that was sent out to us all that we need more members so lets all say there is no hell to burn in and that will trick everyone into wanting to be a JW. Your dead on as usual!!!!
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Galvaston, I think your tone and approach are commendable. You've been very respectful and a gentleman.
But I think you have been misled.
Now you can confirm or deny something that the Jehovah's Witnesses taught me years ago. A friend, when asked about the kingdom, and what would happen if people became disobedient in eternity.
He said that they would just disappear as to be no more, and no one would miss them.
Is this your belief about the eternal kingdom, in case someone decides that they want to suddenly rebel ?