11 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidYour example doesn’t require logic in order to realise that an event either did happen or it didn’t happen. However assuming that neither person A nor person B were eyewitness to the event or non event, then their opinions remain just that, opinions. Using the crucifixion of Christ just confuses you rather than allows you to approach the Idaho with an open mind.
Lets use this example: imagine person A is of the opinion that Jesus died on the cross and person B is of the opinion that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. Logically speaking can both their opinions be true? Clearly not.
11 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidWhether something matters is itself subject to individual opinion. What matters to you, may not matter to me. We are both correct and both have truth that is relative to us.
Ultimately, if truth is relative, all opinions on what matters and what doesn’t matter are neither true nor false.
You really need to rethink what it is you are trying to achieve by the same tree over and over and over and over again.
11 Apr 20
@fmf saidAgreed.
What matters to a person depends on their upbringing, their life experience, the people around them, their insights and perspectives, and their hopes [and fears] for the future. For many people, their religious beliefs ~ and all the personal certainties and aspirations that they give rise to ~ have a bearing on what they believe matters.
Sorry I missed your post earlier.
12 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidYou are perfectly entitled to your personal opinion "that Jesus died on the cross".
Lets use this example: imagine person A is of the opinion that Jesus died on the cross and person B is of the opinion that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. Logically speaking can both their opinions be true? Clearly not.
You are perfectly entitled to your personal opinion that Jesus was crucified and died and that he rose from the dead and later ascended to heaven in order to offer the forgiveness of sins and the opportunity for "salvation".
You are perfectly entitled to assert that these are absolute or objective truths if doing so makes you feel more certain and secure in your faith.
However, you need to come to realize that your earnest assertions do not make your personal opinions any more credible or persuasive.
I suggest you save your 'person A/person B, both cannot be right' riff for questions like 'What is the temperature outside the house?' or 'Does the Bible depict Jesus as being crucified by the Romans?'
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12 Apr 20
@divegeester saidIf truth is merely relative both opinions could be true for each person. But I think we both realize that is not logically possible.
Your example doesn’t require logic in order to realise that an event either did happen or it didn’t happen. However assuming that neither person A nor person B were eyewitness to the event or non event, then their opinions remain just that, opinions. Using the crucifixion of Christ just confuses you rather than allows you to approach the Idaho with an open mind.
The fact of the matter remains that either Jesus died on the cross or he didn’t die on the cross. It’s not logically possible for both of those options to be true. Can we at least agree on that?
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12 Apr 20
@divegeester saidAll I’m trying to say is that belief does not change reality. Reality is what it is. Reality is that Jesus either died or that he didn’t die on the cross. What we believe about the matter doesn’t change what actually happened in reality. We need to examine the evidence and make up our own minds.
Whether something matters is itself subject to individual opinion. What matters to you, may not matter to me. We are both correct and both have truth that is relative to us.
You really need to rethink what it is you are trying to achieve by the same tree over and over and over and over again.
12 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidPeople making up their own minds about supernatural things does not generate absolute truths.
What we believe about the matter doesn’t change what actually happened in reality. We need to examine the evidence and make up our own minds.
You can speculate about supernatural things all you want, but simply declaring whatever you just so happen to believe ~ as a result of speculating about religious doctrine and folklore ~ no matter how certain you are, and having made up your own mind ~ is all squarely in the realm of subjectivity.
And so, naturally, people perceive things differently and don't agree about what is supposedly "the truth".
As you say, people make up their own minds.
If what you believe "matters" to you, while you believe that what "matters" to others doesn't "matter" to you ~ or to them ~ so be it.
12 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidI can agree that we may both believe that Jesus was crucified but it is not a good tool for you to use because neither of us was there at the time and therefore it is just our opinions.
If truth is merely relative both opinions could be true for each person. But I think we both realize that is not logically possible.
The fact of the matter remains that either Jesus died on the cross or he didn’t die on the cross. It’s not logically possible for both of those options to be true. Can we at least agree on that?
But now you are conflating “what matters to people” with an event. You shouldn’t do that because “what matters” to you is a matter (sic) of you opinion but is still truth for you. And what matters to me is truth for me but may be completely different to what matters to you.
Let’s us a simple event instead of crucifixion as an example.
I drop a brick from my upstairs window onto your head. This is an event which both of us witness, it is truth that the event happened. However what matters to you is that your skull is smashed in. What mattered to me was that I was a good shot with the brick. Both are truth, but are different truths about what matters.
So you see your ideology of universal truth being a sort of calibration for all that matters to people is a misconception and a misrepresentation by you.
12 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidI refer you to my post immediately above.
All I’m trying to say is that belief does not change reality. Reality is what it is. Reality is that Jesus either died or that he didn’t die on the cross. What we believe about the matter doesn’t change what actually happened in reality. We need to examine the evidence and make up our own minds.
12 Apr 20
@divegeester saidHis use of this rhetorical gimmick, repeated over and over and over again, to no avail, may offer a glimpse of how he himself was indoctrinated when he was younger by people who wanted him to believe what they believed.
So you see your ideology of universal truth being a sort of calibration for all that matters to people is a misconception and a misrepresentation by you.
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12 Apr 20
@fmf saidI never said making up your mind generates an absolute truth. Absolute truth exists whether we believe in it or not. If it were true that Jesus died on the cross no ones belief about the matter is going to change this truth. The same applies if it were true that Jesus did not die on the cross. The only thing we can do is examine the evidence but our belief does not change the reality of what happened. If you were to believe that Jesus did not die on the cross that would obviously make it true for you but obviously if it were in fact true that Jesus did die on the cross you would still be believing a lie even though from your perspective it would be 'true' that you believe Jesus didn't die on the cross.
People making up their own minds about supernatural things does not generate absolute truths.
You can speculate about supernatural things all you want, but simply declaring whatever you just so happen to believe ~ as a result of speculating about religious doctrine and folklore ~ no matter how certain you are, and having made up your own mind ~ is all squarely in the realm of ...[text shortened]... ou, while you believe that what "matters" to others doesn't "matter" to you ~ or to them ~ so be it.
12 Apr 20
@dj2becker saidWhat's this with you posting using an account called mariekeXIV?
I never said making up your mind generates an absolute truth. Absolute truth exists whether we believe in it or not. If it were true that Jesus died on the cross no ones belief about the matter is going to change this truth. The same applies if it were true that Jesus did not die on the cross. The only thing we can do is examine the evidence but our belief does not change t ...[text shortened]... even though from your perspective it would be 'true' that you believe Jesus didn't die on the cross.
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