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I don't have a god figure like you do.
No answer still, noted.
All criminals around the whole world are being tortured.
Why not do the good thing free them from torture?
Man's imperfect and often erroneous judgments still result in torture of those found guilty. Why not free both the possibly innocent WITH the definitely guilty.
They should be tortured no more. Right FMF?
I don't have a god figure ideology like you do.
More dodging. No answer, noted.
I am not confronting you about a god or gods or your God.
This time a LIE with a dodge.
He is not "confronting" me about a god? Do you believe him?
At every thread he confronts Christians with question marks.
Continued dodge noted.
Additional lie noted.
I am confronting you about the ideology you espouse and its moral implications.
As if there is some difference.
Still no rationale why all tortured criminals should not have their torture terminated by a universal freeing of ALL punished law breakers.
I am not going to conjure up some alternative god or gods and let it or them duke it out with yours.
Still no answer. Dodge noted.
I am an agnostic atheist, sonship. Your threats of demented vengeful cruelty meted out - supernaturally - for thoughtcrimes are meaningless and your "moral" justifications amount to little more than you reiterating and restating your certainty over and over again.
No answer on the moral rectitude of releasing all tortured persons from jails all around the globe in every country.
Release all tortured persons undergoing suffering, sadness, pain, bad circumstances, oppressing torturous incarceration to END ALL torture.
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Note here FMF's warped reception of the good news of salvation. If he is told God so loved the world that He sent His Son for men only to believe in Him they will not perish, THAT is a threat to FMF only.
The entire Bible's presentation of salvation FMF twists in his mind to only amounting to a vengeful threat.
See how he twists the Gospel message?
The love of God - a threat.
The perfect living of Jesus - a threat.
Jesus preaching, warning, teaching, extending mercy, forgiveness, patience, forbearance - A THREAT.
The dying of Christ for us - a threat.
The bearing of our sins by a Perfect and innocent Savior - a vengeful threat.
The warning of an absolutely perfect God - a THREAT, a cruel vengeful threat.
Christ bearing up FMF's sins in his own body to the cross - A THREAT.
The promise of forgiveness, transformation, resurrection, eternal life - a vengeful THREAT.
God totally erasing our sins so that they are forgotten - A THREAT.
God inviting us to only believe in the testimony of His Son - A THREAT.
God everlasting love - a THREAT, an imposition.
The prospect of NO action escaping God's awareness - a threat of a vengeful god ideology.
ANY presentation of the God of the Bible from any angle with any emphasis from any side - A THREAT.
@secondson saidFraming the argument in a way which refutes your argument blows your version of “truth” out of the water.
Of course, frame the argument as you wish, but it won't change the truth.
God is incomprehensible, and you won't find that word in the Bible either.
Yet the the scriptures are clear. God, as we know Him, is three in one, and it will take eternity to comprehend that.
Same with eternal torture
Same with sonship refusing to state whether he holds me, a Christian, “dearer” to him than his secular friends (you will note how he rapidly backed away from that one!)
Same with how sonship will not confirm or deny whether people who reject the trinity doctrine will burn alive in hell for doing so.
@sonship saidFMF is not twisting the gospel message at all. It is YOU and KellyJay who use the threat of eternal suffering to underline your dogmatic perspectives.
Note here FMF's warped reception of the good news of salvation. If he is told God so loved the world that He sent His Son for men only to believe in Him they will not perish, THAT is a threat to FMF only.
The entire Bible's presentation of salvation FMF twists in his mind to only amounting to a vengeful threat.
See how he twists the Gospel message?
The love of ...[text shortened]... /i] presentation of the God of the Bible from any angle with any emphasis from any side - A THREAT.
For example: if I reject the trinity (error doctrine), then I will lose my salvation (error doctrine), and therefore I will burn in Hell (error doctrine)
The errors become compounded and you end up with a situation whereby a Christian like myself who disagrees with your teaching ends up burning in hell. It’s total nonsense.
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Bringing this back to the OP.
Many good things ab out CHrist in the salutation.
1.) Christ, the faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5) .
Christ the God-man bore faithful witness to the uniting of divinity and humanity. It cost Him everything. But He remained faithful.
2.) Christ, the FIrstborn from the dead (v.5)
Firstborn implies OTHERS to be born.
Of all born from the dead into a new creation, a new world, Christ is the Firstborn.
He is the Head of a new humanity - a humanity that has conquered God's greatest enemy - death.
Christ - the FIrstborn from the dead to be followed my many, many brothers also born into the death defying eternal kingdom of God.
3.) Christ, "the Ruler of the kings of the earth" (v.5) .
No of the kings of HEAVEN mind you but of the earth. His kingdom over the planet. Jesus Christ is the Ruler of all the kings in this age and in the age to come.
He reigns over the earth for ever.
4.) Christ, the One who loves us. (v.5).
Nothing can separate His people from His love - unto eternity.
5.) Christ, the One who "has loosed us from our sins in His own blood." (v.5)
The price to free us from guilt of sin was His own blood.
He poured out His innocent and perfectly righteous life to save us from God's judgment.
He loosed us from sin's guilt and power by the offering of Himself to bear what was too heavy for us to bear.
His blood looses us from the guilt of sin and ushers us into His indwelling presence which looses us from the power of sin.
What a Christ.
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The errors become compounded and you end up with a situation whereby a Christian like myself who disagrees with your teaching ends up burning in hell. It’s total nonsense.
Sorry you feel that way. I've taught a hundred times about the assurance of salvation.
If I can have the assurance, as big a sinner as I was and am, someone else calling on the name of Jesus can also.
Paul said he was the chief of sinners too.
Romans :10:9,10.
That if you confess with your mouth, Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth man confesses unto salvation.
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"And the third [angel] poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.
And I heard the angel of the waters saying, You are RIGHTEOUS, who is and who was, the holy One, because You have judged these;
For they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink; they are deserve it.
And I heard the altar saying, Yes, Lord God the Almighty,
TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS ARE YOUR JUDGMENTS." (Revelation 16:4-7)
Throughout Revelation God's judgements are TRUE and RIGHTEOUS.
His vengeance is just. Thank God we can still avail ourselves of His salvation from the wrath to come.
First Thessalonians 1:10
"And to wait for His Son from the heavens, whom He raised from among the dead - Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath which is coming."
Amen Lord Jesus., God's Deliverer, God's Savior.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFrankly again ghost, you don't believe in God so the most fundamental piece of all
The God presented in the OT is not the same God presented in the NT. You have not convinced me this is not the case.
The Trinty is not only a concept not unique to the Bible, it isn't even mentioned in the Bible and was not something the apostles or early church believed. Do you dispute this? If so, state your case.
truth surrounding God has eluded you. So all of your confusion about how many
gods there are in the Bible, or if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God is just
much more of the same.
As I pointed out earlier it doesn't matter if the trinity is in the Bible I don't call on
the trinity in prayer, but I do call on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit of God
they are One. So the word "trinity" as a topic isn't something I'm really concerned
with any more than I worry about how we are described as beings made up with
body, soul, and spirit.
There is only truth that is going to keep people in chains of sins, one that is going
to stop them from being raised up inheriting the imperishable. That is what God
has done for us, because He loves us that is sending Jesus here to die for our sins,
not because we deserved it, but because He loves us. This is keeping people away
from receiving God into their lives, keeping us from our creator. For those that do
not have Son, will also not the Father, as the Spirit of God isn't within them.
1 Corinthians 15:
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
@kellyjay saidThis has got to be one of the most piss-poor illogical and sanctimonious things you have ever said.
Frankly again ghost, you don't believe in God so the most fundamental piece of all
truth surrounding God has eluded you. So all of your confusion about how many
gods there are in the Bible, or if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God is justmuch more of the same.
@divegeester saidNeither is "burning in hell" or "tortured for eternity", but "...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", and "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth", as well as "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".
The “trinity” is not in the bible.
Not once, at all.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
aiōnios - everlasting, never ending. Used for both "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment".
All your, and others posts in regards to the fate of those who reject Christ, and the nature of the Godhead are without substance or merit.
@sonship saidI oppose torture and I oppose capital punishment but I don't oppose incarceration. I think any punishment for thoughtcrimes or for believing in the 'wrong' religion is morally unsound.
Release all tortured persons undergoing suffering, sadness, pain, bad circumstances, oppressing torturous incarceration to END ALL torture.
@sonship saidYes. The threat of incomprehensible vengeful violence and cruelty is, according to you "the perfect morality" and "ultimste justice". The "warped" ugliness is yours not mine.
Note here FMF's warped reception of the good news of salvation. If he is told God so loved the world that He sent His Son for men only to believe in Him they will not perish, THAT is a threat to FMF only.
The entire Bible's presentation of salvation FMF twists in his mind to only amounting to a vengeful threat.
See how he twists the Gospel message?
The love of ...[text shortened]... /i] presentation of the God of the Bible from any angle with any emphasis from any side - A THREAT.
@sonship said“You have taught me...” that’s forum gold, right there.
@divegeesterThe errors become compounded and you end up with a situation whereby a Christian like myself who disagrees with your teaching ends up burning in hell. It’s total nonsense.
Sorry you feel that way. I've taught a hundred times about the assurance of salvation.
Meanwhile I refer you to Thread 179424 from this morning, which is a quote for your own church dogma which contradicts you.
@sonship saidThere is no lie. I have no reason to believe your god figure exists. I am confronting you about your ideology. I am confronting you about the effect your superstitions have on your moral compass. I am not confronting any god or gods.
This time a LIE with a dodge.
He is not "confronting" me about a god?