30 Jun 07
It's not surprising how the substance of my argument appears to have gone unnoticed, or ignored, or over your heads. Like every other thread in this forum, the debate degenerates into off topic arguments.
The solution to any and all of mans problems are directly linked to Christ. Any man made therapeutic solutions are temporary at best, and the same problems continue to plague the human race from one generation to the next.
Short sightedness rules the day!
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by josephwBut you don't really have an argument. You're just asserting stuff without backing it up.
It's not surprising how the substance of my argument appears to have gone unnoticed, or ignored, or over your heads. Like every other thread in this forum, the debate degenerates into off topic arguments.
The solution to any and all of mans problems are directly linked to Christ. Any man made therapeutic solutions are temporary at best, and the same probl ...[text shortened]... to plague the human race from one generation to the next.
Short sightedness rules the day!
This post was more of the same. Again, you simply state that Christ is the solution, without offering any reasons or explanations why other solutions are not valid. Are we just supposed to take your word for it?
30 Jun 07
4 edits
Originally posted by pawnhandlerAt no point in either the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) nor in the Christian Scriptures (NT) does God or anyone else mention that the written words are all that matter or the only path to God
Isn't your spiritual view very limited though? If you read the Bible, surely you've noticed that God works through people as well as through the natural world. At no point in either the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) nor in the Christian Scriptures (NT) does God or anyone else mention that the written words are all that matter or the only path to God. Had you ...[text shortened]... the Bible it says that the path to God is only through the [b]written word of God?[/b]
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On the contrary, the word of God is quite clearly heralded through the NT as the only path to God:
"Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life" (John 5:24).
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Paul makes it plain that it is impossible to come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ without hearing the word of God:
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? Faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ" (Romans 10:13-15, 17).
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If I say the bible is not the only way to find God, what I'm really saying is that I don't believe the bible is God's word, and that the bible is merely another book written by the human intellect. This, of course, renders the bible ineffective, because the hearing of God's word will not be mixed with faith; whereas those who recognize the word of God as God's word, experience God's word "at work" within them:
"We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers" (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
"Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).
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Finally, take the parable of the sower. What is it that God sows? It is his word. Is there any other seed which bears the fruit of the Kingdom of God? No.
"The sower sows the word. These are the ones on the path where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: when they hear the word, they immediately receive it with joy. But they have no root, and endure only for a while; then, when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are those sown among the thorns: these are the ones who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the lure of wealth, and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, and it yields nothing. And these are the ones sown on the good soil: they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty and sixty and a hundredfold" (Mark 4:14-20).
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Yes, the path to God is only through the written (or spoken) word of God.
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerI just don't understand the idea of limiting yourself to one avenue and then considering yourself a Christian.
You can find the path to God through your lived experiences, the experiences and assistance of the people around you, through the natural world, through Kirksey and DrScribbles and Mimor and Jewish psychotherapists ... and the Bible. The Bible is an "and." It is not the whole thing. Lived experience leads you to want to learn more, and the Bible can b ...[text shortened]... stand the idea of limiting yourself to one avenue and then considering yourself a Christian.
The only way you can consider yourself a Christian is by limiting yourself to one avenue.
"For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:14).
30 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasWritten and spoken are two different things.
[b]At no point in either the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) nor in the Christian Scriptures (NT) does God or anyone else mention that the written words are all that matter or the only path to God
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On the contrary, the word of God is quite clearly heralded through the NT as the only path to God:
"Very truly, I tell you, -
Yes, the path to God is only through the written (or spoken) word of God.[/b]
I am not saying that reading the Bible isn't important. I'm saying that it isn't the only way to God, and it isn't all there is.
30 Jun 07
3 edits
Originally posted by pawnhandlerI am not saying that reading the Bible isn't important. I'm saying that it isn't the only way to God, and it isn't all there is.
Written and spoken are two different things.
I am not saying that reading the Bible isn't important. I'm saying that it isn't the only way to God, and it isn't all there is.
I understand where josephw is coming from. As far as salvation is concerned, Jesus Christ is the only way. Period. And it is true that as one progressively incorporates the life of Christ, there is not a single ailment the Lord is not able to completely heal without outside intervention. With God all things are possible.
However, even a Christian is susceptible to the very things which ail non-Christians: depression, violent temper, addiction, phobias, etc. Many of these ailments are the results of a lifetime of false thinking, which can carry over into the Christian life, wreaking havoc.
Repentance is the one great key to healing, unleashing God's power into the Christian's life, which must be arrived at before healing can happen. If a Christian never arrives at repentance (recognizing what is wrong and changing), his or her ailment will not magically heal itself.
In my opinion, therapy can do much to help a Christian by giving him or her the ability to recognize what is wrong, while the actual healing involved remains in God's hands alone (abounding to his glory). To this end, I believe God can use anybody in the service of a Christian, to put him or her in touch with weaknesses and shortcomings which need to be turned over to God.
30 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasHelp me understand something. How is it that say when I might be with a Buddhist or a Hindu or for that matter even a Muslim, they may exhibit more Christ-like traits in attitude and behavior than say a Christian? Let's take your Klansman for example who believes on the name of Jesus Christ as you say Paul insists is the only way. Now he is a good God-fearing Christian. He will tell you that there are "fruits to his labors."
[b]I am not saying that reading the Bible isn't important. I'm saying that it isn't the only way to God, and it isn't all there is.
I understand where josephw is coming from. As far as salvation is concerned, Jesus Christ is the only way. Period. And it is true that as one progressively incorporates the life of Christ, there is not a single ai him or her in touch with weaknesses and shortcomings which need to be turned over to God.[/b]
I honestly cannot tell any difference between your attitude of diseases and Tom Cruise's Scientology view.
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitApparently you didn't read the thread!
But you don't really have an argument. You're just asserting stuff without backing it up.
This post was more of the same. Again, you simply state that Christ is the solution, without offering any reasons or explanations why other solutions are not valid. Are we just supposed to take your word for it?
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerRom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Written and spoken are two different things.
I am not saying that reading the Bible isn't important. I'm saying that it isn't the only way to God, and it isn't all there is.
I'm beginning to question whether or not you spend much time reading the bible.
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by kirksey9572Tim.3:5 Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof:
Help me understand something. How is it that say when I might be with a Buddhist or a Hindu or for that matter even a Muslim, they may exhibit more Christ-like traits in attitude and behavior than say a Christian? Let's take your Klansman for example who believes on the name of Jesus Christ as you say Paul insists is the only way. Now he is a good God ...[text shortened]... not tell any difference between your attitude of diseases and Tom Cruise's Scientology view.
I'm beginning to wonder whether you either spend much time reading the bible.
Just because someone appears on the outside to exhibit christian virtues doesn't mean a thing. Without Christ you're is lost.
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasIn principal I agree with what you are saying here. But my assertion in this thread is that knowing who we are 'in Christ' is how one overcomes sin.
[b]I am not saying that reading the Bible isn't important. I'm saying that it isn't the only way to God, and it isn't all there is.
I understand where josephw is coming from. As far as salvation is concerned, Jesus Christ is the only way. Period. And it is true that as one progressively incorporates the life of Christ, there is not a single ai ...[text shortened]... him or her in touch with weaknesses and shortcomings which need to be turned over to God.[/b]
Even repentance is a work. 'In Christ' we are complete. The very righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and the law is fulfilled in us.
Col.2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: And the following verses.
It is by faith that we received Christ, and it is by faith that we live.
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by josephwI actually spent years studying the Bible, so don't go there. I have to go take my car in for an oil change, so I don't have time to fully respond. Be back later though.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I'm beginning to question whether or not you spend much time reading the bible.
30 Jun 07
Why is it that when I truly was repentant, it didn't change the fact that I still need to wear eyeglasses?
I knew a woman who wanted to be a nun. She went to a community and the superior general told her that once she was truly repentant of her sin, God would relieve her of the cerebral palsy she was born with that was her punishment, and she would then be worthy of joining the order. But this sign of her sin would keep her out in the meantime. I think there's a special place in hell for that nun and people like her. None of us could convince her that it was just an accident of birth and you can't commit a sin in utero; a nun said it, and that made it true. Biatch.
30 Jun 07
Originally posted by kirksey957I honestly cannot tell any difference between your attitude of diseases and Tom Cruise's Scientology view.
Help me understand something. How is it that say when I might be with a Buddhist or a Hindu or for that matter even a Muslim, they may exhibit more Christ-like traits in attitude and behavior than say a Christian? Let's take your Klansman for example who believes on the name of Jesus Christ as you say Paul insists is the only way. Now he is a good God ...[text shortened]... not tell any difference between your attitude of diseases and Tom Cruise's Scientology view.
That's because you misunderstand me. I have no problem with therapy. Lord knows it's good for people to confess to others and receive constructive, non-judgmental feedback. That in itself can solve many problems which the human soul is susceptible to. Through counseling a person can learn to recognize which of their own behaviors are contributing to their problems.
AA, for example, is simply confession, repentance, and surrender outlined in 12 steps. It works for non-believers as well as believers alike because it accurately follows the innately established pattern of the human soul, as created by God, for the soul's healing. The point being, therapy only works insofar as it closely mirrors God's method of healing (i.e. confession, repentance, surrender, etc.). These methods in themselves, if sincerely applied, are healing. Why? Because they reflect the wisdom of God and his knowledge of what is best for his creatures.
But finding healing is not the same as finding regeneration through faith in Jesus Christ; the latter follows the foreordained 'natural' pattern of the human soul, while the former is an entirely supernatural resurrection of the spirit through the impartation of the life of Christ. The born-again Christian still employs the same methods as the non-believer, but it is now keenly recognized that God is the wisdom and power of healing behind all methods.
Furthermore, God is able through the resurrected spirit to bring complete healing to soul and body. Of course, it is wrong to assume that all ailments can or will be healed, since God's kingdom is not yet established in this world, but the Lord's healing power can and does from time to time break through into this world, within the life of a believer. I refer here, of course, to God's miracle power.