02 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwJosephw, it looks for all the world to me like you are conflating two distinct things:
In principal I agree with what you are saying here. But my assertion in this thread is that knowing who we are 'in Christ' is how one overcomes sin.
Even repentance is a work. 'In Christ' we are complete. The very righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and the law is fulfilled in us.
Col.2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so w ...[text shortened]... ollowing verses.
It is by faith that we received Christ, and it is by faith that we live.
1. Sin and/or sin nature.
2. The damage that living in a fallen world as fallen beings does to the heart of a person.
The fact is that whether or not you are being renewed in your inner man day by day, being transformed by the renewing of your mind, etc. etc., you still get hurt in the world, and as humans we develop our own ways of handling/escaping pain and hurt. Often, because we are human, those methods serve well in the moment (where survival is paramount), but cause long-lasting damage in other areas as we grow and have to relate to the world. I'm thinking here specifically of victims of abuse.
Here on earth, you may be God's child but you don't escape the damage you and others have done yourself by merely living. Belief and conversion does not heal that damage outright in most cases. True, your identity is now with Christ, but the problem is that you can't really experience that in fullness because you do not have the capacity to see yourself or God clearly. How can you know who you are in Christ? The essence of the damage living does to us is that it mars our deepest nature, our core self, that person whom we were created to be, if you will. It's like throwing mud on a painting. Therapy may help you clean it off.
Ignoring your own damage, or waiting for God to just do it is stubbornness itself: your ears are plugged, your vision blurred, your steps faltering. Put simply, and in xian terms: failing to grapple honestly and perpetually with your own damage hobbles your walk with God.
02 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwI'm beginning to question whether or not you spent much time reading Thread 72006. 😉
I'm beginning to question whether or not you spend much time reading the bible.
03 Jul 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitYes I did. And I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. I just saw this post of yours, but I have to go to bed. I'll try to get back here again tomorrow, and start all over again if I have to, because I feel very strongly about this topic, and I want to make it as clear as I can.
I've read the thread several times. You have not shown that non-Christian forms of therapy are uneffective, nor made it clear why focusing on the 'new man' fixes real-world physical addictions like alcoholism.
03 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwSuppose I am a Christian with a debilitating phobia of spiders.
I'll try to clarify.
I am referring here to therapies that deal with correcting or modifying negative behaviors, and not to any physical therapies.
I wish I could make this clear: The 'new man' is 'Christ in you'. It is by the 'word of God' that the new man is developed and 'conformed to the image' of Christ. The 'therapies' developed by man are only effec ...[text shortened]... d. But it is because they are unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'.
Is accepting Christ my only recourse?
03 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwAre you still in bed? I too am curious how accepting Christ ends someone's alcoholism or tobacco or other substance addition, or heals them of abuse/incest/rape experiences or any of a number of other serious issues that lead people to get help.
Yes I did. And I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. I just saw this post of yours, but I have to go to bed. I'll try to get back here again tomorrow, and start all over again if I have to, because I feel very strongly about this topic, and I want to make it as clear as I can.
03 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwOthers have wondered the same about me if it will make you feel better.
2Tim.3:5 Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof:
I'm beginning to wonder whether you either spend much time reading the bible.
Just because someone appears on the outside to exhibit christian virtues doesn't mean a thing. Without Christ you're is lost.
If you wanted someone to experience Christ, to learn of his love and salvation, you would lead them in a certain direction. Perhaps point them to passages in the Bible. Perhaps refer them to a good church. Maybe witness to your own salvation and how it changed your life. If you know that to be a good experience for you, you can imagine how frustrated you would get if the other person said, "Nope, don't need it. I'm fine. I get my gratification in life from other things." It may well be that what you know could help them.
Do you see any of yourself in this kind of person?
04 Jul 07
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeIf you're a christian, then you have already accepted Christ!
Suppose I am a Christian with a debilitating phobia of spiders.
Is accepting Christ my only recourse?
But you do make a good point.
The world is full of people with all sorts of phobias. I'm not saying christians are some how magically cured of their "psychological" problems just because the are christians. I'm talking about something much deeper than that. I'm talking about a union between Christ and the believer. We are, as believers, so closely link to Christ, that we can say, "we are complete in him." Meaning, as it says in Col. 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
If you don't understand what I'm trying to say here, then there is no point in debating about it. But if by chance you hear the sound of some truth, then I would be more than willing to discuss this further.
04 Jul 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerHaven't been in bed since 5 am. That was 16 hours ago.
Are you still in bed? I too am curious how accepting Christ ends someone's alcoholism or tobacco or other substance addition, or heals them of abuse/incest/rape experiences or any of a number of other serious issues that lead people to get help.
Is there anything the love of Christ can't heal? You've been reading the bible all these years, and yet your trust in the power of the gospel is that weak? Do you turn to the world for inspiration, or the word of God?
Tell me in your own words what it means to be "in Christ".
Please don't accuse me of being condescending. I trust God and his word the bible. Not Man. That is why I so strongly defend the faith.
04 Jul 07
Originally posted by kirksey957If it makes you feel better, I would only say that to my friends.
Others have wondered the same about me if it will make you feel better.
If you wanted someone to experience Christ, to learn of his love and salvation, you would lead them in a certain direction. Perhaps point them to passages in the Bible. Perhaps refer them to a good church. Maybe witness to your own salvation and how it changed your life. If you ...[text shortened]... that what you know could help them.
Do you see any of yourself in this kind of person?
I'm not sure I understand your question. My primary motive is to share Christ. Knowing Christ is the supreme experience.
I only know you from this forum. At first, six months ago, I thought you were ignorant. Not more ignorant than me, but ignorant about the truth of the gospel. I had a problem with your posts and the conversations you engaged in. But I have learned to appreciate your obvious intelligence. I would like to meet you, but I think I'm out of your league.
Just what do you believe in?
I don't mean to get personal, but I hate the facade in this forum.
