Originally posted by checkbaiterYou take a clear verse like the Isaiah passage and say its absurd. If it is so absurd then it should be an easy matter to show how and why. So do that instead of discarding what Isaiah said without explanation..
Where do I start? You pick and choose what verses you like but ignore others that you don't like.
First you quote Isaiah 45:5-8, "God creates darkness and evil." This is absurd!
I suggest that you learn a little more about figures of speech in the bible.
There is a figure used in the bible called "Metonymy" [hidden]a figure of speech that consists ...[text shortened]... to reconcile verses of scripture that contradict each other. Otherwise all you have is religion.
Your point in the last paragraph is about who to blame. Here is an explanation from Paul about that same issue..
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:12-15 KJV)
Every man's sin will fall on his own shoulders as he cannot blame anyone but himself for his falling into temptation. Man brought sin into the world and man has to deal with his sin.
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Originally posted by Rajk999See what I mean? I explained figures of speech like "Metonymy" and you completely ignore the clear verses and the contradictions.
You take a clear verse like the Isaiah passage and say its absurd. If it is so absurd then it should be an easy matter to show how and why. So do that instead of discarding what Isaiah said without explanation..
Your point in the last paragraph is about who to blame. Here is an explanation from Paul about that same issue..
[i]Blessed is the man that en ...[text shortened]... r his falling into temptation. Man brought sin into the world and man has to deal with his sin.
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo what do we have so far:
See what I mean? I explained figures of speech like "Metonymy" and you completely ignore the clear verses and the contradictions.
- The Devil [who Christ said is a liar] claiming that he has all authority and Christ did not respond to that [ I dont accept your view that Christ's silence means acceptance that the Devil is actually in charge like he says etc]
- Christ saying that all authority is given to him, obviously God gave him that. [ I dont accept your view that Christ did not get that authority as yet]
- Isaiah saying that God creates evil. [I understand your explanation but this is not saying that God does evil things but rather that God allows the evil to continue]
- Paul saying that you cannot blame anyone for your sins except yourself.
- John saying : This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. [ This is in agreement with Isaiah ie there is no evil or darkness in God or Christ. God just allows the evil to continue. When God is ready he will stop it .. and since that is the case clearly God is in control and not Satan or anyone else.]
I have a problem believing that anyone but God is in charge of this world. Just like in the Job story Satan was given leeway with Job but God was still in control. That is how it is now.
All your illustrations using the current state of the world being full of evil just does not cut it. The world has far more good and just and right things about it, than evil.
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Originally posted by Rajk999No problem, I'm not going to get into a long back and forth with you...Peace..🙂
So what do we have so far:
- The Devil [who Christ said is a liar] claiming that he has all authority and Christ did not respond to that [ I dont accept your view that Christ's silence means acceptance that the Devil is actually in charge like he says etc]
- Christ saying that all authority is given to him, obviously God gave him that. [ I dont accept ...[text shortened]... just does not cut it. The world has far more good and just and right things about it, than evil.
Originally posted by galveston75The Devil is basically like a rabid dog on a leash.......and God holds that leash and is in full control of all or do the scriptures mean nothing? Job is an interesting insight into how the devil basically must be allowed to do and obey God in any matter. As far as the Fallen Angels it is a warning to man that we must repent (be changed by God) or we will suffer their fate. Maybe God does love all of the angels as these were his creation but some chose to rebel against God.
He ignors and side steps quite often. Always has and always will I guess.
Manny
The King of Tyre
Tyre’s King Overthrown Ezekiel 28
28 The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God,
“Because your heart is lifted up
And you have said, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods
In the heart of the seas’;
Yet you are a man and not God,
Although you make your heart like the heart of God—
3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel;
There is no secret that is a match for you.
4 “By your wisdom and understanding
You have acquired riches for yourself
And have acquired gold and silver for your treasuries.
5 “By your great wisdom, by your trade
You have increased your riches
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches—
6 Therefore thus says the Lord God,
‘Because you have made your heart
Like the heart of God,
7 Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you,
The most ruthless of the nations.
And they will draw their swords
Against the beauty of your wisdom
And defile your splendor.
8 ‘They will bring you down to the pit,
And you will die the death of those who are slain
In the heart of the seas.
9 ‘Will you still say, “I am a god,”
In the presence of your slayer,
Though you are a man and not God,
In the hands of those who wound you?
10 ‘You will die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of strangers,
For I have spoken!’ declares the Lord God!”’”
11 Again the word of the Lord came to me saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God,
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
Manny
Job 1:6
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
Manny
People many times think that Good(God) and Evil are equally matched but this is a fallacy as God is in control and all powerful and scriptures teach that if there is really anyone to fear it is God himself
Christ or Judgment
Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Matthew 10
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Manny
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Originally posted by menace71
People many times think that Good(God) and Evil are equally matched but this is a fallacy as God is in control and all powerful and scriptures teach that if there is really anyone to fear it is God himself
Christ or Judgment
Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifi ...[text shortened]... kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Manny
]People many times think that Good(God) and Evil are equally matched but this is a fallacy as God is in control and all powerful and scriptures teach that if there is really anyone to fear it is God himself
They are nowhere near equal, of course God is vastly superior, but He is not in control of everything that happens...and it is silly to think God holds Satan on a leash.
If every choice you’ve ever made was certain an eternity before you made it, were you really free when you made each choice? Could you have chosen differently if it was eternally certain you’d make the choice you did? If God foreknew that Adolf Hitler would send six million Jews to their deaths, why did he go ahead and create a man like that? [We might now add Osama bin Laden].
How is God not responsible for the behavior of evil people he “unleashes” on the world if, in fact, he is absolutely certain of what they will do once “unleashed”? If God is eternally certain that various individuals will end up being eternally damned, why does he go ahead and create them? And then try to get them to accept his grace throughout their lives—as though there were genuine hope for them? If the future is exhaustively settled in God’s mind, as the classical view holds, why does the Bible repeatedly describe God changing his mind? Why does the Bible say that God frequently alters his plans, cancels prophecies in the light of changing circumstances, and speaks about the future as a “maybe,” a “perhaps,” or a “possibility”? Why does Scripture describe God as expressing uncertainty about the future, being disappointed in the way things turn out, and even occasionally regretting the outcome of his own decisions?
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=724
Gentlemen, Checkbaiter and Rajk999, maybe it is i you should send your quarrel to.After all i started this thread.
First thing is we all don't have the same bible. I use the Jerusalem Bible, and i have noticed the version i own is slightly different from a newer Jerusalem Bible. Some of you use the King James with the these, thy's, those and thusses. Something that drives me crazy. And there is the New American and others. Not all the words are same, but the meaning is the same.
Then you have terminology, Satan and wickedness, or saved and entering heaven, and other doubles. What i mean is just as being saved is not the same thing as going to heaven. Neither is Satan and wickedness the same.
I'ld contiue, but i need to get off this computer, peace, friends
Originally posted by checkbaiterOk, force me to respond. God is in control. Satan does have free will, as we all do. Satan could not exist without God.]People many times think that Good(God) and Evil are equally matched but this is a fallacy as God is in control and all powerful and scriptures teach that if there is really anyone to fear it is God himself
They are nowhere near equal, of course God is vastly superior, but He is not in control of everything that happens...and it is sil ...[text shortened]... n decisions?
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=724[/b]
Much to Wolfgang59's shagrin, God IS in control.
Originally posted by menace71I remember the time before the fall of Lucifer. When the Angels were as children before God. It was beautiful to behold.
The King of Tyre
Tyre’s King Overthrown Ezekiel 28
28 The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God,
“Because your heart is lifted up
And you have said, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods
In the heart of the seas’;
Yet you are a man and not God,
Although you make yo ...[text shortened]... Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
Manny