Can Forensic Science Trace the World’s Origins?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Only if you think by saying yes, yes, yes there was a creation that means that there has to be.

Actually no, I think we can reason it out due to all we see and experience. I'm waiting on your rational right now for your beliefs.

@kellyjay said
Actually no, I think we can reason it out due to all we see and experience. I'm waiting on your rational right now for your beliefs.

I also believe we can reason it out due to all we see and experience. (And incidentally, so did Aristotle). The lack of credible evidence for a creating deity makes it more reasonable to conclude there wasn't a creation event. The universe has always existed, in one form or another.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I also believe we can reason it out due to all we see and experience. (And incidentally, so did Aristotle). The lack of credible evidence for a creating deity makes it more reasonable to conclude there wasn't a creation event. The universe has always existed, in one form or another.

That is the reason for this discussion isn't it, can we find credible evidence? Is it even reasonable to assume we can find a creator within the universe, or must the creator be outside of it? If there is isn't a creator would we know? If there isn't one when we compare that to there is, but its one that cannot be seen, is there any difference between those two, and how would we know?

@kellyjay said
That is the reason for this discussion isn't it, can we find credible evidence? Is it even reasonable to assume we can find a creator within the universe, or must the creator be outside of it? If there is isn't a creator would we know? If there isn't one when we compare that to there is, but its one that cannot be seen, is there any difference between those two, and how would we know?

The problem you have Kelly is that anything you ask of me in regards to an eternal universe applies also to an eternal deity. - You ask me to explain how an eternal universe works, I ask you how an eternal deity works, and so on.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The problem you have Kelly is that anything you ask of me in regards to an eternal universe applies also to an eternal deity. - You ask me to explain how an eternal universe works, I ask you how an eternal deity works, and so on.

No, that is not the case.

Nothing in this universe is self-existing, everything owes it’s beginning to something else in this universe and in this place things are winding down. All lifeforms here go back generations even the plants, rocks, water, air are formed from earlier times. There is nothing here that suggests an eternal universe, you have not even attempted to explain why in the face of evidence to the contrary. You have evidence that suggests the eternal universe that you have not shared yet?

The universe is dated and evolving, God is not, His existence is owed to nothing, He is the great “I am”! God was, is, and forever will be, He isn't turning into something better, God is good in the purest sense of the word’s meaning. If perfect gets altered it would become less than, God isn't less than while the universe is.

Now in this universe you see evil and wickedness actions being perpetuated upon others. In God that is not true, His kindness and longsuffering has made a way for us to be rescued within this place and this universe’s end is near, God isn’t going to end. The universe cannot self-start out of nothing, as everything in it, its existence is owed to something else as we study it. While God's introduction came in as the great I AM, the one who is that transcends all of time, space, and matter taking claim to starting the universe.

@kellyjay said
No, that is not the case.

Nothing in this universe is self-existing, everything owes it’s beginning to something else in this universe and in this place things are winding down. All lifeforms here go back generations even the plants, rocks, water, air are formed from earlier times. There is nothing here that suggests an eternal universe, you have not even attempted to exp ...[text shortened]... the one who is that transcends all of time, space, and matter taking claim to starting the universe.

"No, that is not the case. Nothing in this universe is self-existing, everything owes it’s beginning to something else...."


And that includes God Kelly!!!

Otherwise, why can't I just claim the same about an eternal universe? Why can God be the exception to the rule but not the universe itself?

And I have made no claim that the universe is perfectly good and void of evil. An eternal universe doesn't require such qualities.

And once more, I am 'not' saying the universe self-started out of nothing. I have made very clear that no 'start' occurred and that there never has been 'nothing.' You're struggle with this notion is unavoidable as we both have a finite understanding of such matters.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
"No, that is not the case. Nothing in this universe is self-existing, everything owes it’s beginning to something else...."


And that includes God Kelly!!!

Otherwise, why can't I just claim the same about an eternal universe? Why can God be the exception to the rule but not the universe itself?

And I have made no claim that the universe is perfectly good an ...[text shortened]... 're struggle with this notion is unavoidable as we both have a finite understanding of such matters.

The only way that would include god would be those gods that were created here. Thee God created everything, there was nothing created that wasn’t created by God and for God.

You are thinking of little gods not the One true God.

@kellyjay said
The only way that would include god would be those gods that were created here. Thee God created everything, there was nothing created that wasn’t created by God and for God.

You are thinking of little gods not the One true God.

All gods are the same Kelly. Your own still comes from the same pot of human imagination.


3 options:

1. God created everything. (Nothing credible supports this).
2. Everything came from nothing. (Illogical).
3. The universe didn't have a beginning but has always been here in one form or another. (Satisfactory explanation).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
All gods are the same Kelly. Your own still comes from the same pot of human imagination.


3 options:

1. God created everything. (Nothing credible supports this).
2. Everything came from nothing. (Illogical).
3. The universe didn't have a beginning but has always been here in one form or another. (Satisfactory explanation).

So, only if I accept your beliefs about god then what you say is true?

@kellyjay said
So, only if I accept your beliefs about god then what you say is true?

I have no beliefs about God. I'm an atheist.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I have no beliefs about God. I'm an atheist.

So it doesn’t matter what is seen what can be shown to you the truth is only what you think? There is no reasoning with you? In a discussion about forensic evidence you reject it all without question? The reasons being presented can’t be true because you reject them no matter what, or you think the arguments against them are so strong?

A belief about God can be many things, all gods are man made, or some are made due to this, or due to that. Suggesting anything is true or not shows some beliefs. No option would utter nothing on the topic while engaging with a position means that you have something in mind!

@kellyjay said
So it doesn’t matter what is seen what can be shown to you the truth is only what you think? There is no reasoning with you? In a discussion about forensic evidence you reject it all without question? The reasons being presented can’t be true because you reject them no matter what, or you think the arguments against them are so strong?

A belief about God can be many thing ...[text shortened]... uld utter nothing on the topic while engaging with a position means that you have something in mind!

Reject without question?

I have given more consideration to the idea of god/gods and analyzed the 'evidence' more than most non-theists. My disbelief in God is not down to a lack of effort or investigation on my part.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Reject without question?

I have given more consideration to the idea of god/gods and analyzed the 'evidence' more than most non-theists. My disbelief in God is not down to a lack of effort or investigation on my part.

I don’t doubt you put in effort. I don’t believe anyone can say no beliefs after study. You either walked away saying no to something because...or yes. Nature abhors vacuums something is in your truth table one way or another giving you beliefs. You can not say God had to start within the universe without some view about God. Putting a limitation on God suggests a strong opinion, not one void of views.

@kellyjay said
I don’t doubt you put in effort. I don’t believe anyone can say no beliefs after study. You either walked away saying no to something because...or yes. Nature abhors vacuums something is in your truth table one way or another giving you beliefs. You can not say God had to start within the universe without some view about God. Putting a limitation on God suggests a strong opinion, not one void of views.

Do you consider disbelief a form of belief?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Do you consider disbelief a form of belief?

Suggesting that a value is 4 or 5 or 0 means you have some idea of values. Suggesting that there isn’t a value means the same thing! Symantec’s aside you are still picking a position!