02 Jan 07
2 edits
Originally posted by stockenAs a matter of fact He did throw himself in the blender ......
Why?
Oh, and since omnipotence apparently has it's limitations, perhaps they are
narrower than you think. Perhaps, it's like God is a manager of a chocolate
factory. He can't make sure that all chocolate is made equal, and only
saves the perfect pieces for himself. The rest is either thrown back into the
blender for reproduction or given to the po ...[text shortened]... r case, God still won't
throw himself in the blender, because he's clearly not chocolate.
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by stockenStocken: "then decided not to interfere in any way"
Cancer? Cancer? You couldn't come up with something that we actually
do control on a personal level? I can get cancer due to factors
outside my control, such as being exposed to the toxic waste of the
preaching fundamentalist. Brain cancer! Aouch!
Your argument only weakens the alleged power of God. If he created this
crappy globe, then dec ...[text shortened]... hat stuff,
yea? šµ
Hm, I think you might be an imperfect piece of chocolate, there mate.
... but He did interfere .....
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by ivanhoeAccording to Ace he doesn't interfere when it really matters. If you're on
Stocken: "then decided not to interfere in any way"
... but He did interfere .....
about Jesus again, let me ask you this: What's the point in creating this
place, showing up to tell everyone that we're sinners and will be condemned
to an eternity in hell unless we accept this God who then kills his physical
self (or let's himself get killed) and disappear from public view for two
thousand years?
Really, what's the point?
02 Jan 07
3 edits
Originally posted by stockenYour argument only weakens the alleged power of God. If he created this crappy globe, then decided not to interfere in any way, why do so many people pray to him for this or that, and then expect him to help them out? That just doesn't make any sense. He's not going to interfere, right? No wait. He helps those who accept him their hearts and that stuff,
Cancer? Cancer? You couldn't come up with something that we actually
do control on a personal level? I can get cancer due to factors
outside my control, such as being exposed to the toxic waste of the
preaching fundamentalist. Brain cancer! Aouch!
Your argument only weakens the alleged power of God. If he created this
crappy globe, then dec hat stuff,
yea? šµ
Hm, I think you might be an imperfect piece of chocolate, there mate.
Hmm...for ALL members of the set of people that die a truly horrific and painful death due to disease, murder etc AND prayed for God to save them...there exists NO person who really accepted him/her/it...ok!šš
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by kirksey957Reverend, this is a very good point! It's one I had never considered.
Well, according to Christian tradition and some of the creeds "He descended into hell." Whether this qualifies as "banishing himself to hell" I don't know. I do know it has no bearing on how my day will end up.
If hell is in fact just separation from God, what does it mean for Jesus to have descended into hell? Was Jesus temporarily not God?
02 Jan 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzI think the only sensible way of looking at this is that
Yes it does.
a) it's quite Ok to think that an omnipotent God should be able to perform completely illogical contradictory things like become a non-God or make a stone so heavy he can't lift and this can be a perfectly reasonable definition of ominpotence.
BUT ..I also think that
b) it's quite Ok to think that an omnipotent God would not be able to perform completely illogical contradictory things like become a non-God or make a stone so heavy he can't lift.
Both positions are Ok and are different and valid interpretations of how one views ominpotence. However , if Atheists are to claim that position b) is ridiculous and that position a) is the ONLY valid way of looking at omnipotence then they had better come up with something better than " yes it does"
02 Jan 07
7 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterHmm, making a rock so heavy that he can't lift it seems like an incorrect attack because he'd need to make something even bigger (like a planet) that can bear it's weight (such that it is in a position to be lifted) but lemme try something...
I think the only sensible way of looking at this is that
a) it's quite Ok to think that an omnipotent God should be able to perform completely illogical contradictory things like become a non-God or make a stone so heavy he can't lift and this can be a perfectly reasonable definition of ominpotence.
BUT ..I also think that
b) it's quite Ok king at omnipotence then they had better come up with something better than " yes it does"
1) Does, god know everything?
1.a) Assuming he does, does he know every nook and cranny of the universe? or are there some places he doesn't know about?
1.b) If there are some places that he doesn't know about then what is the extent of his ignorance?...given that he has existed for an infinite amount of time how could he not know of every little nook and cranny?...especially when it was he who created the universe in the first place!
2.a) If on the other hand we assume that he does indeed know every nook and cranny of the universe, then given that you accept your god can make things out of nothing is it not possible that he could populate every space in the universe with say....rocks, or sand even!
2.b) Assuming that he could fill every nook and cranny of the universe with rocks or sand....where then could he move them afterwards without un-making them?...wouldn't this be making something he cannot move?
3.a) If he cannot fill the entire universe with rocks or sand...what is it that prevents him from such a feat?...Is there something that exists that is more powerful than him...is he constrained by certain barriers?...who put these restraints in place?
3.b)Assuming there is something more powerful than this god...does he know everything? (and so on...)
02 Jan 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeIf he is omnipotent he can do anything.
No, it does not, genius.
"Omnipotence (literally, "all power"š is power with no limits or inexhaustible, in other words, unlimited power."
"Between people of different faiths, or indeed even between people of the same faith, the term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:
1. God is able to do everything, i. e. the answer to "can God do x" is always "yes", regardless of what x may be.
2. God is able to do everything that is in accord with his own nature (thus he is not able to lie, for instance, since what God speaks is truth by definition). God is able to intervene in the world by superseding the laws of physics and probability, since they are not part of his nature, but constructs of a physical world.
3. God can not only transcend the laws of physics and probability, but can also transcend logical truths (for example, God could create a square circle, or could make one equal two), because God is not bound by any limitations."
There we go.
[edit; of course, Ivanhoe, it seems that your god is only a little bit omnipotent. Happily super-duper God doesn't have such puny limitations.]
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by stockenThat's for you to find out .....
According to Ace he doesn't interfere when it really matters. If you're on
about Jesus again, let me ask you this: What's the point in creating this
place, showing up to tell everyone that we're sinners and will be condemned
to an eternity in hell unless we accept this God who then kills his physical
self (or let's himself get killed) and disappear from public view for two
thousand years?
Really, what's the point?
03 Jan 07
2 edits
What if God just got tired? I mean, think about it. You're supposed to be
there for eternity, but all you can see is a bunch of idiots all over the
place. You gotta be asking yourself then: "What's the point?"
Now, omnipotent and all, maybe it decided that to hell with it all and
completely vanished from existence. Leaving us idiots mongering about
our purpose and trying to get close to our vanished creator.
And now, with all the technology and scientific progress we've done, we
are slowly becoming godlike ourselves, seeking happiness and meaning
in this vast void we call universe.
Oh, the irony. Can anyone else see where we're heading with this?
03 Jan 07
Originally posted by scottishinnz***definition 2 is a perfectly Ok way of interpreting omnipotence. There is nothing that I know of in the Bible that says God should be able to do 1 or 3. In any case the word omnipotence does not appear in the Bible.
If he is omnipotent he can do anything.
"Omnipotence (literally, "all power"š is power with no limits or inexhaustible, in other words, unlimited power."
"Between people of different faiths, or indeed even between people of the same faith, the term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but ar ...[text shortened]... little bit omnipotent. Happily super-duper God doesn't have such puny limitations.]