24 Jul 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterEvidence of what?telepathy?
I heard this story coming out of a local church (the person who related it was trustworthy). A young guy was walking by a bus station when a strange idea entered his head . He felt that God was somehow telling him to go into the bus station and do a few cartwheels in front of people. In a kind of step out in faith he went and did this with varying d ...[text shortened]... ces" . I know this is not proof of anything but anecdotally it is still evidence of sorts.
24 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterit is still evidence of sorts.
I heard this story coming out of a local church (the person who related it was trustworthy). A young guy was walking by a bus station when a strange idea entered his head . He felt that God was somehow telling him to go into the bus station and do a few cartwheels in front of people. In a kind of step out in faith he went and did this with varying d ces" . I know this is not proof of anything but anecdotally it is still evidence of sorts.
Yes, the "dj2beckerian" sort.
By the way, "I bet you can't make someone come into this station now and do a cartwheel"? Am I to take it, then, that God settled this bet -- that is, God in response made it such that antecedents were causally sufficient to elicit the young man's choosing to so cartwheel?
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloYes I believe telepathy exists to some extent .No I cant control it but,,,,,Because there is something around that man cannot fully explain or harness does not prove the existance of god,,,,,,but I quite like the idea of God the bookie
[b]it is still evidence of sorts.
Yes, the "dj2beckerian" sort.
By the way, "I bet you can't make someone come into this station now and do a cartwheel"? Am I to take it, then, that God settled this bet -- that is, God in response made it such that antecedents were causally sufficient to elicit the young man's choosing to so cartwheel?[/b]
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe axioms for my stance are real simple, and you know them, Just 4.
No scotty , the biggest cop-out is taking a rigid simplified stance on things that affords no room for doubt or struggle and is self confirming and self congratulatory in nature. It is religious fundamentalism in reverse. Black and white , all or nothing thinking with no interest in anything else but destroying or stopping the opposition (whilst not re ...[text shortened]... cop-out in any position religious or atheist. I'm sorry my God is too "complicated" for you.
Omnipotence,
Omnipresence,
Omnibenevolence
Omniscience.
That and logic.
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzAll of these axioms are open to varying interpretations some of them rigid and simplistic and some more subtle involving putting your thinking cap on. They are also not the entire chapter and verse on Christianity either nor do they completley define the nature of God and what he does and why. But let's not complicate things for you eh? It would be much less emotionally satisfying for you than your current "bash Christianity at all costs " stance.
The axioms for my stance are real simple, and you know them, Just 4.
Omnipotence,
Omnipresence,
Omnibenevolence
Omniscience.
That and logic.
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloYes , God was able to influence the young man to go and do the cartwheel although he may not have done as well for all I know. Maybe God's control over his life was such that he was able to ensure that he would do the cartwheel , but this could only happen if the man had already freely agreed to hand his life over to God.
[b]it is still evidence of sorts.
Yes, the "dj2beckerian" sort.
By the way, "I bet you can't make someone come into this station now and do a cartwheel"? Am I to take it, then, that God settled this bet -- that is, God in response made it such that antecedents were causally sufficient to elicit the young man's choosing to so cartwheel?[/b]
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI still think that what you explain as the reason for God telling the man (ie to save the woman from suicide) just doesn't make any sense.
No, evidence that the Holy spirit knows what the woman prayed for and was able to plant the idea in the guys mind and know that he would do it.
1. It would have been so much easier to talk to her directly or simply stop her by some other means.
2. It directly contradict the Bibles teaching about not testing God.
3. It contradicts your own previous claims that God providing solid evidence for himself contradicts our free will.
etc
If you do for a moment suppose that God did actually tell the man to do the cartwheels then there must have been other more important reasons such as allowing the man to go and testify in church later on thus making you happy. But then again it doesn't make much sense as you would hardly be likely to believe such a far fetched story. Or would you?
It just doesn't add up. I know you can come up with an explanation for why this and why that but as you are only guessing throughout it is just as likely that your initial guess (that God told him to do it) is wrong. In other words your explanation is simply not the parsimonious one.
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by twhitehead1. It would have been so much easier to talk to her directly or simply stop her by some other means.WHITEY
I still think that what you explain as the reason for God telling the man (ie to save the woman from suicide) just doesn't make any sense.
1. It would have been so much easier to talk to her directly or simply stop her by some other means.
2. It directly contradict the Bibles teaching about not testing God.
3. It contradicts your own previous claims th ...[text shortened]... d him to do it) is wrong. In other words your explanation is simply not the parsimonious one.
Response--
He could have talked to her directly but often people who are in that state of mind get very confused if they think that they have God's voice in their heads. It could have been quite disturbing for her . Also , a "voice in your head" is easier to dismiss as subjectibve than an objective "co-incidence" . Finally , that's not what she asked God for , she DID ask for what she got. Maybe God could have stopped her by some other means , who knows , but in the end God is personal and responds in a relational way. If cartwheels is our thing then God uses it. My experience is that God uses a way of communicating with me that I relate to because he knows me intimately and understands the way my mind works. Cartwheels might not have cut the mustard for me , but it did for her.
2. It directly contradict the Bibles teaching about not testing God.
WHITEY
Response---
This is poor . By this logic any prayer for anything at all is testing God. Jesus asked us to pray for the things we need. Was he saying that we should test God? You need to think about the difference between a mocking "test" and a heartfelt honest prayer. Technically she was testing God , but God didn't mind because it's the spirit in which we pray and ask that counts. A true tester of God doesn't ask God in humility and faith.
3. It contradicts your own previous claims that God providing solid evidence for himself contradicts our free will.
etc WHITEY
Response----
Again poor. If it was solid evidence then you would be asking me how to become a christian . She , you or I are still free to believe what we like about this event (as you are demonstrating) . It is my free act of faith via my own will to believe that it was from God , but I can choose to disbelieve it if I want.
24 Jul 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf you do for a moment suppose that God did actually tell the man to do the cartwheels then there must have been other more important reasons such as allowing the man to go and testify in church later on thus making you happy. But then again it doesn't make much sense as you would hardly be likely to believe such a far fetched story. Or would you? WHITEY
I still think that what you explain as the reason for God telling the man (ie to save the woman from suicide) just doesn't make any sense.
1. It would have been so much easier to talk to her directly or simply stop her by some other means.
2. It directly contradict the Bibles teaching about not testing God.
3. It contradicts your own previous claims th ...[text shortened]... d him to do it) is wrong. In other words your explanation is simply not the parsimonious one.
You don't get it do you?? It wasn't about him , it was about her and her relationship with God at that time. The man was a willing bit part player happy to serve God . God could not have done it without him and vice versa , but someone's desperate prayer in their darkest moment was answered. If anyone was going to testify it would be her. Do you think the man was going around thinking " hey, this is neat and cool , look at me and what God and me did" . If he had been thinking like this God would not be able to use him this way. His heart would have rejoiced and been glad that he was able to serve his God in such a beautiful way to reach out to someone. He stepped out in faith because he knew that God had his reasons and that it would be to further the cause of justice , truth and love. God has a long track record of using the strange and the downcast and the lowly to further his kingdom. He deliberately stays away from the powerful and the popular. The cartwheel thing is typical . Look at the derision it received. Does God give a fig? He chose a lowly carpenter dying in humiliation to humble the roman empire. Have you any idea how radical and subversive he is?
The story is about love and God meeting someone in their darkest hour. It's not about silly tricks and "evidence". God is about love and compassion. In a way I'm admonishing myself as well here because I too have used the story in terms of it's evidence and not it's deeper meaning.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut it wasn't so you are wrong.
If anyone was going to testify it would be her.
Do you think the man was going around thinking "hey, this is neat and cool, look at me and what God and me did".
Not only did he do that but you did the same and even started a thread to that effect.
The cartwheel thing is typical. Look at the derision it received.
Derision? Not apparently in your Church which is where he told the story.
You are just contradicting yourself in every sentence!
Now answer me honestly. Which do you think is more likely to have a happened:
1. The woman asked God to make someone do cartwheels in the bus station.
2. The woman asked God for a sign and after seeing someone do cartwheels elaborated on the story when talking to the man.
Remember that you find the man trustworthy but have never met the woman (at least you haven't mentioned it if you have) so you have no idea whether she is the sort of person who might elaborate a little bit.