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05 Dec 18
3 edits
The snatching away of one man from the two working in the field and the one from the two women grinding should correspond to God's promise that He would remove some enduring saints out of the hour of trial which is coming on the whole inhabited earth to try them. That means the hour of the great tribulation. So the vigilant and ready brothers and sisters are removed BEFORE that hour in Matt. 24:40,41.
" Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is ABOUT TO COME on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)
At that time of wide scale drunkenness two Christian men will be in the field. Jesus deems that one has learned the lesson of keeping His endurance. He is watchful in a moment by moment way. He is TAKEN. The other is left to pass through the hour of world wide trial.
He will be taken afterwards.
At the same time, two Christian women will be doing the work of grinding. Christ ascertains that one has learned some lessons whereby she is vigilant, watchful, enduring in grace, and ready. That one will be taken. The other Christian women will be left to pass through the hour of trial which is to come on the whole inhabited earth.
She will be taken latter.
All will be taken.
All will not be taken at the same time.
I've always believed that the rapture of the church, before the start of the seventieth week, was strictly Pauline and given him by revelation.
I'm having difficulty marrying Matthew 25 with 1 Thessalonians 4 for the reason stated above.
It is not that easy. And there is another reason why Matt. 24:40,41 should be pre-tribulation which is more crucial. It has to do with the way Matthew 24 is divided into two major sections. If you miss this division you will be confused.
I will go over this in another post.
Matthew 24:1-31 is Christ speaking to the disciples who are standing on the ground of being Israelites. That section ends with verse 31.
Matthew 24:32- 25:30 is Christ speaking to the same disciples as they stand on the ground of constituents of the new covenant church.
How he addresses them in each section is important to how we understand the sequence of events related to His return.
05 Dec 18
@sonship saidI cannot force God's Kingdom on to the world any more than I can delay it. Do we
@KellyJay
The Rapture isn't worth arguing about.
I have seen arguments about pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and
It is not worthy forming divisions about. But do you wish for the Lord to return? Do you wish for Him to come and establish His kingdom on the earth?
If you care then you should care that there be something to woo H ...[text shortened]... 2[/b].
If you care for the winning of the spiritual warfare then you should care about rapture.
serve a God who is all knowing, all powerful, the Alpha and Omega? My goal in
life is to serve Him as called, as I told you I don't worry or concern myself about
the rapture, because more are likely going to die before that event than are
affected by it. Being obedient to the Holy Spirit’s lead, being faithful to God’s
Word, loving God and each other is more important! Why the concern about pin
pointing an event in time, that God says no one knows when it’s going to occur
save the Father? Shouldn’t it be enough to know it is going to, that this life, this
universe, has an end coming that cannot be stopped or hindered.
@secondson saidOne can contend ~ as some Christians do ~ that permanent destruction [or irreversible annihilation] are clearly punishments and also that if they are permanent and irreversible, then those punishments are "everlasting".
Everlasting punishment. Not irreversible annihilation. Not permanent destruction.
05 Dec 18
1 edit
@fmf saidSeeing contention doesn't mean much, if one is going to look at that punishment,
One can contend ~ as some Christians do ~ that permanent destruction [or irreversible annihilation] are clearly punishments and also that if they are permanent and irreversible, then those punishments are "everlasting".
all the scriptures that have something to say about the topic should be looked
at. Looking at just one verse while ignoring all others sets one up for failure, its
the whole that matters. With the other text it is clear the punishment will continue
forever, so ignoring those may sooth the mind, but puts into danger souls by the
ignoring scripture. Because truth can be unappealing and horrific, truth doesn’t
change because its unappealing and horrific!
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05 Dec 18
3 edits
I cannot force God's Kingdom on to the world any more than I can delay it.
I understand your rightful humility here. But surely you are not saying that our prayers and petitions to God have no effect.
Do we
serve a God who is all knowing, all powerful, the Alpha and Omega?
Yes. But you don't mean that our prayers, mighty corporate prayers cannot touch God's throne and move His hand. He longs for our harmony and cooperation.
Daniel was carried to Babylon. He studied the prophecy of Jeremiah and understood that God promised to return the Israelites in seventy years. Daniel did not consider he could not do ANYTHING to help God. Daniel prayed for the fulfillment of the prophecy !
Daniel was not fatalistic about Jeremiah's prophecy. Daniel prayed three times a day. He prayed for God to DO IT! Why didn't Daniel say " God is Almight. He will do His will whether I pray or not. HE doesn't need me to petition Him to do what He promised. I cannot FORCE God to act."
No, Daniel risked his life to pray. That is one of the points of the book of Daniel. At the threat of being cast into a lion's den he went on and prayed. For what was he praying? It was for God to DO as God had PROMISED. And the threat of being eaten alive by lions did not sway his dedication.
No, He could not FORCE the Almighty against His will. But Daniel could echo God's will and be in harmony so as to prompt God's faithfulness.
According to your view when being threatened to stop praying or be eaten by lions, Daniel had plenty of excuse to STOP. After all, God cannot be forced by his petitions. Right?
We should not have the exact same attitudes as fatalistic Muslims of Islam.
God desires cooperation, harmonization, and echoing of His will in our lives and petitions to Him.
@kellyjay saidA "contention" is just an assertion or an argument. You are contending that "it is clear the punishment will continue forever". That is your interpretation. The authors of the Bible chose to make this matter opaque and open to interpretation. I suppose it's part of your eagerness/earnestness to propagate your own interpretation when you frame disagreement as "putting souls into danger" ~ so, what you are saying is it is your belief that if a Christian is an annihilationist, his or her "soul is put into danger". Or is that not what you are saying?
Seeing contention doesn't mean much, if one is going to look at that punishment,
all the scriptures that have something to say about the topic should be looked
at. Looking at just one verse while ignoring all others sets one up for failure, its
the whole that matters. With the other text it is clear the punishment will continue
forever, so ignoring those may sooth the mi ...[text shortened]... e truth can be unappealing and horrific, truth doesn’t
change because its unappealing and horrific!
05 Dec 18
@sonship saidI do believe we play a part, prayer is one of the most important parts of our walk.
@KellyJay
I cannot force God's Kingdom on to the world any more than I can delay it.
I understand your rightful humility here. But surely you are not saying that our prayers and petitions to God have no effect.
Do we
serve a God who is all knowing, all powerful, the Alpha and Omega?
Yes. But you don't mean that our prayers, mi ...[text shortened]...
God desires cooperation, harmonization, and echoing of His will in our lives and petitions to Him.
Of late the focus of our morning prayers (wife and I) are for God to give us eyes
that see and ears that hear what the Lord is showing us. So we can do the works
He has for us, as the Spirit leads us and guides us.
If you recall when Jesus brought back Lazarus from the dead, there were those
that acknowledge this as true and real, and still they plotted to kill both Jesus
and Lazarus. When Peter and John healed the cripple man, there were those that
saw it and acknowledged it and still wanted them to stop preaching Jesus.
Now its easy to bash those that did these things, but it was brought up in a prayer
meeting I was at, "I wonder what God is trying to show me, that I'm blind too?"
If people cannot see what is right in front of them, no matter how glaring it is with
out eyes that see, than mere words don't matter, the power of God only, God
granting those who see need eyes that can, and those that hear need ears that
can. The world is blinded, its us yielding to the Lord I believe is more important.
So I do believe our petitions have an effect, but they are stronger when we are
praying, "Lord your will be done."
@kellyjay saidDo you have any sources to corroborate these stories aside from the accounts written decades after Jesus' death by people setting up a new religion centred on Jesus?
If you recall when Jesus brought back Lazarus from the dead, there were those
that acknowledge this as true and real, and still they plotted to kill both Jesus
and Lazarus. When Peter and John healed the cripple man, there were those that
saw it and acknowledged it and still wanted them to stop preaching Jesus.
@secondson saidDon’t be silly.
I've taken nothing out of context, but you have neutered the content by insisting on hanging on to the idea that because the context uses metaphor and symbolism that it has no meaning relative to concepts expressed with regard to the content.
.
The context is that the chapter is entirely parabolic and metaphorical.
@secondson saidThey are not lies, those words are my honest perspective of you. You come across as a guy who’s been in his “church” a long time, possibly and elder, but more likely leader/overseer of the youth group. I get this impression by you turning up here and pontificating on scripture like you are talking to a bunch of green youngsters at your church who all think your pompous words add up to something more than just an expression of your blowhardiness.
As for the lies about me in you post above, again you have revealed the truth about you. You are a spiteful, bitter and judgmental hypocrite, which is probably why no one invites you to go to church with them.
05 Dec 18
@secondson saidI’ve made a robust case to you about that chapter from Mathew, from which you took a single verse and posted it in support of an argument for a literal eternal punishment. The chapter you took it from is entirely parabolic and metaphorical. You are wrong and don’t like someone demonstrating that you are wrong.
All you've demonstrated is a lack of knowledge and understanding, and a penchant for making spiteful, bitter and judgmental accusations.
I’m not impressed by your blowhardiness SecondSon. I’ve spent many years in corporate religion listening to Christians just like you trying to Lord it over Christians just like me. Go back to the youth group.
05 Dec 18
@kellyjay saidYes, context matters.
Looking at just one verse while ignoring all others sets one up for failure, its
the whole that matters.
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@KellyJay
I really enjoyed that post.
Unfortunately, I am too sleepy right now to write.
I'll try to respond latter.
We who love the Lord do have to check our hearts. We do have to realize that in our fallen being is everything wanting to fight against the Spirit.
His sustained mercy can keep us so we would not drift into being like the unbelieving Pharisees.
Thankyou.
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05 Dec 18
@KellyJay
You'll find my replies kind of bend the discussion in the direction of the OP.
I do believe we play a part, prayer is one of the most important parts of our walk.
Yes. Not just for God to do a thing but for God to change us.
Jesus said God not only will answer prayers that are according to His will but He would reward or repay prayer.
But you, when you pray, enter into your private room, and shut your door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. (Matt. 6:6)
LIke Daniel, who prayed for God to fulfill his promise to bring back the Israelites from Babylon. And he prayed at the risk of his life.
God not only answered the prayer. We may expect God to repay or reward Daniel's faithful prayer.
I tell you, though we know Christ promised to return, we should as husband and wife and in small groups, PRAY for the same. God will reward such prayers of faith in the millennial kingdom.
05 Dec 18
@fmf saidThey are the words used in scripture I don't have to turn into something that isn't
A "contention" is just an assertion or an argument. You are contending that "it is clear the punishment will continue forever". That is your interpretation. The authors of the Bible chose to make this matter opaque and open to interpretation. I suppose it's part of your eagerness/earnestness to propagate your own interpretation when you frame disagreement as "putting souls into d ...[text shortened]... ian is an annihilationist, his or her "soul is put into danger". Or is that not what you are saying?
there, instead when it says things like their torment goes up forever and ever, I
believe it means exactly what it says. There is no changing of the text to make it
mean something other than what it says, if you were to claim it is a metaphor I
would ask you than what is the meaning if not something as bad, in the torment
and the duration. The authors of the Bible were clearing making a point and if
you think the words used do not convey their points, then what could and would?
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Matthew 13:41-43 English Standard Version (ESV)
41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.