03 Dec 18
@sonship saidWhere does it say the rapture is a reward?
To be "in Christ" means being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:14
I agree. But the SEALING is for eternal life and eternal redemption.
Rapture is a reward for WALKING with God by learning to set the mind on the spirit where ...[text shortened]... by being kept out of its hour. - Raptured BEFORE the great tribulation.
Think on it a bit more.
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03 Dec 18
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Correct He would not split up the church like that, it would be all that are ready not some portion.
Well tell me brother KellyJay, is there some implied distinction among all the saved in the church in Corinth here? I mean, in principle now.
Please do not misunderstand me. Think only of the PRINCIPLE of the Lord of the church making some kind of distinction
But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble (v.12)
The work of each will become manifest for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire., and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is. (v.13)
If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward; (v.14)
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:12-15)
I do not say that this verse is about the Rapture.
I do say that in principle the Lord takes the total number SAVED and makes a distinction between those:
1.) Who receive a reward and are saved.
2.) Who suffer loss and are saved.
Shall we tell Jesus? ... - "Oh no Lord. This is dividing your church up into classes. Are they not all with the Holy Spirit? Are they not all SEALED with that Spirit? May it NEVER be that there should be two classes of believers in your church Lord."
But Jesus says both are saved. But one group is saved and rewarded and the other group is saved and suffer loss.
This is distinction between some defeated and saved and some overcoming and saved. This is a principle applying to ALL who are saved. Not ALL are rewarded the same. And SOME suffer loss though they are saved.
There is hardly an argument against this I think.
Now come back to Rapture. Christ can reward SOME of the church for keeping the word of His endurance. He can reward them with early rapture out of the hour of world wide trial.
What about the others left behind? They can be raptured latter. But they must pass THROUGH the hour of trial. And to do so is used by God's sovereignty to help them ALSO to learn to keep the word of His endurance.
If tow "CLASSES" is objectionable, I think you cannot deny TWO groups manifesting some distinction revealed by Christ the Head of the church.
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03 Dec 18
Where does it say the rapture is a reward?
I think that this verse strongly implies REWARD.
'Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)
It is not a gift because of REDEMPTION. It is a rewarding because of ENDURANCE in Christ.
Since the lesson was LEARNED, to endure in Christ during the proper time, there is no need for the remedial time to learn to endure during the world wide trial.
This keeping out of the hour of tribulation across the whole inhabited earth is a reward in addition to the gift of eternal redemption and eternal life.
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03 Dec 18
I need scriptural evidence to support those assertions.
For example: "majority woman"? Never heard of her.
I will try to show you how I got convinced.
Did you read the story of Gideon's army of three hundred in Judges 6:33 - 7:15 ? Give us some thoughts on what you read there.
03 Dec 18
@sonship saidWhen we are saved, we are saved. You will never be more saved tomorrow than you are now and neither will anyone else it is the Lord’s doing not us. We are saved by grace not by works!
@KellyJay
Correct He would not split up the church like that, it would be all that are ready not some portion.
Well tell me brother KellyJay, is there some implied distinction among all the saved in the church in Corinth here? I mean, in principle now.
Please do not misunderstand me. Think only of the PRINCIPLE of the Lord of the church making som ...[text shortened]... k you cannot deny TWO groups manifesting some distinction revealed by Christ the Head of the church.
Now there are those who claim the name but reject the Lord. They join in the services stand up in prayer, yet they don’t know the Lord and their lives reflect that, there is no difference between them and anyone who doesn’t know the Lord. These people are poisonous examples of Christ hidding truth from a dying world.
If they turn to the Lord after that day they will have to deal with what is about to happen on the earth. Those that turn to the Lord still can until the Lord says it is finished!
03 Dec 18
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@sonship saidIsn't that a post rapture verse?
@SecondSon
Where does it say the rapture is a reward?
I think that this verse strongly implies REWARD.
'Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)
It is not a gift because ...[text shortened]... he whole inhabited earth is a reward in addition to the gift of eternal redemption and eternal life.
I must correct myself. I don't think it is.
I'm going to have to reread your posts. It seems there are a lot of things you say I agree with, but a few I don't.
03 Dec 18
@sonship saidIf someone is not a member of your church group will they be in anyway precluded from any rapture?
To be "in Christ" means being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:14
I agree. But the SEALING is for eternal life and eternal redemption.
Rapture is a reward for WALKING with God by learning to set the mind on the spirit where ...[text shortened]... by being kept out of its hour. - Raptured BEFORE the great tribulation.
Think on it a bit more.
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When we are saved, we are saved. You will never be more saved tomorrow than you are now and neither will anyone else it is the Lord’s doing not us. We are saved by grace not by works!
Now there are those who claim the name but reject the Lord. They join in the services stand up in prayer, yet they don’t know the Lord and their lives reflect that, there is no difference between them and anyone who doesn’t know the Lord. These people are poisonous examples of Christ hidding truth from a dying world.
If they turn to the Lord after that day they will have to deal with what is about to happen on the earth. Those that turn to the Lord still can until the Lord says it is finished!
Thankyou KellyJay. Good fellowship.
Thankyou.
I am probably going to hold off for a time.
Very good discussion.
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04 Dec 18
Isn't that a post rapture verse?
I must correct myself. I don't think it is.
I'm going to have to reread your posts. It seems there are a lot of things you say I agree with, but a few I don't.
I feel to hold off for a time. But thanks ever so much for some pretty good fellowship.
If you look up all the verses that were mentioned, do so prayerfully and see what God would impress you with. I kind of like to hear myself talk. And maybe I should just cool it for awhile on this subject.
I could just be spreading too much premature knowledge when more Spirit and life would be more edifying. Maybe I'll see what constructive things others want to say or what questions I might respond to if someone could be helped.
There’s a difference between challenging your error and “very good fellowship” sonship. And the good fellowship doesn’t usually result in you “holding off for a while”.
Personally I have zero interest in debates about “raptures” as I don’t think there is sufficient biblical evidence one way or another and protagonists end up speculating, and trying to form truth from it, as you have. At least it was refreshing to see other Christians also stepping forward to challenge your error.
There is only one thing of interest to me in this thread and that is my increasing insight that you are a memeber of a cultish maybe not a cult) sect, denomination, group, whatever. This last week or so I’ve come to realise why you stubbornly refuse to answer binary (as you call them) yes/no questions. It was the same with Robbie Carrobie when I questioned him about salvation, heaven, afterlife, etc being linked to membership of his church. He would hem and haw, duck and dodge, obfuscate and eventually blank me out. Like you have.
Why? Because he was hiding a superiority complex fuelled by a belief that “membership” of the right temporal church group has its rewards. Elitism basically.
I’m open to discussing these ideas with you but something tells me you won’t want to.
04 Dec 18
@divegeester saidAccording to what you've posted it doesn't appear you're "open to discussing" anything.
There’s a difference between challenging your error and “very good fellowship” sonship. And the good fellowship doesn’t usually result in you “holding off for a while”.
Personally I have zero interest in debates about “raptures” as I don’t think there is sufficient biblical evidence one way or another and protagonists end up speculating, and trying to form truth from ...[text shortened]... asically.
I’m open to discussing these ideas with you but something tells me you won’t want to.
At best you're a wishy washy Christian that doesn't believe what the scriptures say.
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04 Dec 18
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There’s a difference between challenging your error and “very good fellowship” sonship. And the good fellowship doesn’t usually result in you “holding off for a while”.
I have had some very good fellowship which however was time consuming. Sorry, if you're displeased that I had very good fellowship.
Personally I have zero interest in debates about “raptures”
And you usually appear in threads where you have zero interest somehow.
I've grown accustom to you being the first to join in with you often "zero interest".
The entire spectrum of Christ's full salvation interests me.
The whole scope of it of interest. And I try to interest others.
as I don’t think there is sufficient biblical evidence one way or another and protagonists end up speculating,
You're welcomed to your opinion.
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04 Dec 18
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and trying to form truth from it, as you have.
Sorry you feel that way. Of course feeling that way doesn't make a number of teachings disappear from the Scriptures, ie. Matthew 24:38-44 and Luke 17:33-37.
But I never get much impression that you read the New Testament too much.
At least it was refreshing to see other Christians also stepping forward to challenge your error.
I saw some civil challenges which I enjoyed. I didn't notice YET the pointing out of any error.
No, that is not saying "I can never be wrong." That is just me saying, "I did not notice YET the pointing out of an error."
If you noticed one you may point it out.
But by "error" I don't mean something that you don't like.
Your next post can therefore point out the error I have written.
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04 Dec 18
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There is only one thing of interest to me in this thread and that is my increasing insight that you are a memeber of a cultish maybe not a cult) sect,
Am I suppose to be surprised? You come with baggage of suspicion, rumor, negativity, terribly superficial research, prejudice, inordinate self loving, arrogance, and you seek to confirm what you want to believe.
Was I suppose to be surprised?
denomination, group, whatever.
It is comforting for some people to be accusatory yet in a vague way.
Make up your mind what you want to call the local churches.
It is noted that you didn't respond to certain questions about the church in Jerusalem, the church in Antioch, the seven churches in revelation. I asked you if they were denominations.
"On with the show"
Is all I got, as is typical with trolls.
I know you wrote more. But excuse me. That's all I feel needs my time.
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04 Dec 18
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@SecondSon
Hello. I was really studying to reply and needed a break.
Isn't that a post rapture verse?
I take the seven letters to the seven churches to be also prophetic allegories to the church age. How the church will develop through the ages up to the time of Christ's coming to reward His saints in the millennial kingdom.
Therefore, Revelation 3:10 about keeping the Philadelphians out of the hour of trial is not post rapture but a pre-rapture promise.
The hour of trial is coming. He will keep them from that hour.
I believe the meaning keeping them out of the hour is by rapturing them out of the world.
I must correct myself. I don't think it is.
I definitely think of it as a promise made in the church age to those EXPECTING rapture and EXPECTING the coming world-wide trial.
I'm going to have to reread your posts. It seems there are a lot of things you say I agree with, but a few I don't.
That is a good idea. But I did realize " For the first time exposure to some of these things, it must sound really strange."
And I think for that reason I must be much more careful about "premature knowledge". I am going to try prayerfully to proceed with care about rushing too many concepts which I know will be rather new and strange on this side of the Reformation.