Communication with God.

Originally posted by galveston75
Humm. Jesus cleary said to pray thru him to his "Father". I think that's pretty clear who we are actully supposed to pray to. Jesus never once said to pray to him EVER, but only "through" him.

Your description of them being distinct just doesn't fly. You say they are two distinct person just now but then you go off on this same essance thing. Just is ...[text shortened]... ceptional or notable: a distinct honor.


Would you like more examples of this word?

In the Holy Trinity, the 3 Persons of God are disctinct in that the Father is not the same as the Son, nor is the Son the same as the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the same as the Father. However, they are ((united)) as God. That is why God said, "Let Us make man in Our image." I know that is a mystery, but that is how God works.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the Holy Trinity, the 3 Persons of God are disctinct in that the Father is not the same as the Son, nor is the Son the same as the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the same as the Father. However, they are ((united)) as God. That is why God said, "Let Us make man in Our image." I know that is a mystery, but that is how God works.

The Instructor

Lol. You may not realize it but your descriptions of this belief you have is changing quite often. I wonder why?

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol. You may not realize it but your descriptions of this belief you have is changing quite often. I wonder why?

My descriptions have not changed, but hopefully your understanding of my descriptions have changed so that you are beginning to understand what i believe rather than what you have made out that I believe.

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok. Still not making sense. So we pray thru Jesus to his Father or we pray to Jesus as he is the Father?
You see you can't have it both ways.
If Jesus were the same as his Father because you just said they are ONE and according to your doctrine which states all three are equal and all knowing, then Jesus would have told his followers something along ...[text shortened]... ll answer your prayers because we are the same, and it will be given to you!"

Am I wrong?

I am not giving you "both ways" I'm telling you that Jesus points us to our
Father God, and that Jesus is One with the Father, your ability to not grasp
that does not alter what I said. Stick to the words I say, please do not add
to them and twist them into something I have not said.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I am not giving you "both ways" I'm telling you that Jesus points us to our
Father God, and that Jesus is One with the Father, your ability to not grasp
that does not alter what I said. Stick to the words I say, please do not add
to them and twist them into something I have not said.
Kelly

Sorry as I'm not trying to twist anything you say.
But you have to understand that for all that do not believe the trinity, it is a pretty far out thing to grasp and even harder to go with when most historians and Bible scholars don't understand it and why it even came into existance and with the circumstances it came to be formulated.
And then you have the vast, vast majority of the Bible that completely disagrees with this thought of them being some kind of unexplainable godhead being, and then you have all the pagan nations that did have many 3 in 1 gods that they worshipped and that were made up from demonic influance.
And then because of God saying very clearly that he is ((( 1 ))) god when he obviously knew that most of the pagan nations around his people worshipped many 3 in 1 gods, he was making it known to his people that he was not like those gods by saying he was ((( 1 ))) god to keep any misunderstandings from happening to them.
And then for the churches that do teach it to say that you have to believe in it or you can never be saved, which Jesus nor any of his apostles never said or even hinted in the slightest about as a must to gain life.
So that being said one can't help but view the determination that ones who believe this have, which could be out of the fear that their churches have instilled in them for having to believe it no matter what or else you will not ever be saved? A possiblity?
And then when the word or a form of the word "trinity" is never even once mentioned in the Bible makes it even harder to buy.

So do you understand why ones who do not accept the trinity feel this strongly about this?

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry as I'm not trying to twist anything you say.
But you have to understand that for all that do not believe the trinity, it is a pretty far out thing to grasp and even harder to go with when most historians and Bible scholars don't understand it and why it even came into existance and with the circumstances it came to be formulated.
And then you So do you understand why ones who do not accept the trinity feel this strongly about this?

There are a lot of worldwide flood stories in pagan religions too. Should we then say those that believes that the flood in Noah's day was worldwide are borrowing a pagan belief?

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry as I'm not trying to twist anything you say.
But you have to understand that for all that do not believe the trinity, it is a pretty far out thing to grasp and even harder to go with when most historians and Bible scholars don't understand it and why it even came into existance and with the circumstances it came to be formulated.
And then you ...[text shortened]... So do you understand why ones who do not accept the trinity feel this strongly about this?

No worries, I believe you when you say you were not attempting to twist
my words.

I also get the Trinity is difficult, I don't think people struggling with the
nature of the Eternal God is unnatural or unexpected either since we are
talking about our limited lives and intellect and God's greatness in His ways
and His form.

I believe we dealing with (1) God, that does not mean I think God's Word
begotten in the flesh isn't God in the flesh. I believe the Spirit of God
abides in His people, that does not mean I do not pray to God the Father
and when I follow God's Spirit leading in my life that I stop praying to my
Father who is in Heaven. We are being restored to God, being raised in a
world where evil abounds everywhere, where evil is justified by the world,
the flesh, and the devil. So seeing confusion about God isn't surprising,
but I do believe God who is restoring us to Him can and does work through
all of that as we draw near Him.
Kelly

Originally posted by RJHinds
There are a lot of worldwide flood stories in pagan religions too. Should we then say those that believes that the flood in Noah's day was worldwide are borrowing a pagan belief?

The Instructor

What? No not at all. We know the flood happened and it was afterwards that the knowledge of the flood was spread. It has nothing at all to do with pagan teachings as it is simply history being told down thru the gernerations.
It has nothing to do with some formulated belief that had it's roots in false religion that God hated.

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry as I'm not trying to twist anything you say.
But you have to understand that for all that do not believe the trinity, it is a pretty far out thing to grasp and even harder to go with when most historians and Bible scholars don't understand it and why it even came into existance and with the circumstances it came to be formulated.
And then you ...[text shortened]... So do you understand why ones who do not accept the trinity feel this strongly about this?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Believe me when I say that everyone must be born from water and the Spirit. Anyone who is not born from water and the Spirit cannot enter God’s kingdom.

Romans 8:15
The Spirit that we received is not a spirit that makes us slaves again and causes us to fear. The Spirit that we have makes us God’s chosen children. And with that Spirit we cry out, “ Abba, Father.”

Romans 8:23
Not only the world, but we also have been waiting with pain inside us. We have the Spirit as the first part of God’s promise. So we are waiting for God to finish making us his own children. I mean we are waiting for our bodies to be made free.

1 Corinthians 2:12
We received the Spirit that is from God, not the spirit of the world. We received God’s Spirit so that we can know all that God has given us.

1 Corinthians 2:14
People who do not have God’s Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit’s help.


I will say that if you do not have God's Spirit, you are not walking with God
but in the flesh which is at odds with God. It is like water not being able
to rise beyond its source, in the flesh you'll never grasp God. So if you are
not walking with God with God's Spirit you are in your flesh only.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No worries, I believe you when you say you were not attempting to twist
my words.

I also get the Trinity is difficult, I don't think people struggling with the
nature of the Eternal God is unnatural or unexpected either since we are
talking about our limited lives and intellect and God's greatness in His ways
and His form.

I believe we dealing wit ...[text shortened]... is restoring us to Him can and does work through
all of that as we draw near Him.
Kelly

Thanks. It's not that I don't think ones who believe in the trinity are not sincere.
But the reason we do go door to door is to share many things and one of those is about the truth of the trinity.
As I said earlier that many, and I know this to be a fact, accept it because of the fear they have thinking that if they don't, their churches tell them they will burn in hell which RJ reminds everyone of quite often. This is not close to the teachings of Jesus and he never once alluded to anything of the sort.
The Bible says that the "truth" will set you free. And when a church teaches that you "have to believe" in the trinity or you will never gain life is flat wrong and not biblical.
So how can this be a truth of the Bible and God? Look at the way it is taught to ones who really do love God but now it is a fearful love instead of a longing love.

Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks. It's not that I don't think ones who believe in the trinity are not sincere.
But the reason we do go door to door is to share many things and one of those is about the truth of the trinity.
As I said earlier that many, and I know this to be a fact, accept it because of the fear they have thinking that if they don't, their churches tell them ht to ones who really do love God but now it is a fearful love instead of a longing love.

Well describe for me God's Holy Spirit, and the Son of God as you see
them. Do you believe they are just super beings apart from God?

As you see them according to how you read scripture is what I'm talking
about, but any thoughts on them would be acceptable too.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well describe for me God's Holy Spirit, and the Son of God as you see
them. Do you believe they are just super beings apart from God?

As you see them according to how you read scripture is what I'm talking
about, but any thoughts on them would be acceptable too.
Kelly

No problem. I'm going to past this because it is exactly what I would say to you in description:

What is the Holy Spirit?

The Scriptures make clear that the holy spirit is a force that God uses to accomplish his will. When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have a son even though she was a virgin, the angel told her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” (Luke 1:35)
According to Gabriel’s words, there is a link between the holy spirit and the “power of the Most High.”

A similar idea appears elsewhere in the Bible. The prophet Micah said: “I myself have become full of power, with the spirit of Jehovah.” (Micah 3:8) Jesus promised his disciples: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you.” (Acts 1:8) And the apostle Paul spoke of “the power of holy spirit.”—Romans 15:13, 19.

So, what may we conclude from the foregoing? There is a close connection between the holy spirit and the power of God. The holy spirit is the means by which Jehovah exerts his power. Put simply, the holy spirit is God’s applied power, or his active force.
And what a force that is! We cannot comprehend the power needed to create the entire universe. Through the prophet Isaiah, Jehovah suggested that we reflect on the following: “Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.”—Isaiah 40:26.


Who is Jesus?

His prehuman Existence.
The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58)

His "only begotton" son.
Jesus’ is called the “only-begotten Son” (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) But it does not mean that the other spirit creatures produced were not God’s sons, for they are called sons as well. (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7)

Called the "word or spokesman" of God. (Joh 1:1)

Also called the Messiah, Saviour, King and Lord..

I could say much more but you should get who he is to us from this.

Originally posted by galveston75
What? No not at all. We know the flood happened and it was afterwards that the knowledge of the flood was spread. It has nothing at all to do with pagan teachings as it is simply history being told down thru the gernerations.
It has nothing to do with some formulated belief that had it's roots in false religion that God hated.

You are quick to defend the claim that the flood story was borrowed from pagan religious myths. However, you will not even consider any defense that is given that the Trinity is not the same as the pagan religious myths and is not borrowed from paganism. Now why is that? Are you prejudice against Christianity and its concept of a Triune God? If you were honest you would at least look at a defense of that charge. I will post a link to one such defense in case you are willing to look at and consider it.

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-not-pagan-reasons.htm

There are also Youtube videos that defend against the pagan charge, however I have my doubts that you even want to consider anything that challenges your own pagan beliefs about the Trinity.

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
No problem. I'm going to past this because it is exactly what I would say to you in description:

What is the Holy Spirit?

The Scriptures make clear that the holy spirit is a force that God uses to accomplish his will. When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have a son even though she was a virgin, the ang ...[text shortened]... ur, King and Lord..

I could say much more but you should get who he is to us from this.

However, you do not consider everything that is said about the Holy Spirit and Jesus that adds to the understanding of the Holy Spirit and Jesus. That is the problem with the Watchtower teachings. They pick and choose only those verses that seem to support their doctrines and they attempt to change the Holy Scriptures in those places that do not support their limited concept of God. They try to put God in a box and it can't be done.

I don't know it you are doing this on purpose or not, but you come across as being very dishonest in presenting your beliefs by completely ignoring all the other evidence that does not support your position.

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
No problem. I'm going to past this because it is exactly what I would say to you in description:

What is the Holy Spirit?

The Scriptures make clear that the holy spirit is a force that God uses to accomplish his will. When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have a son even though she was a virgin, the ang ur, King and Lord..

I could say much more but you should get who he is to us from this.

So for you the Holy Spirit is not a whom, but a what?
I also noticed that you left how scripture names the Holy Spirit to the
holy spirit, that also is a departure from scripture.
Kelly