Creation Answer Book

Originally posted by googlefudge
It's your religion, not mine.

It's not up to me to tell you what your religion predicts about the world that might be tested.

In this day and age, it should be an easy task for man to rebuild Babylon
and inhabit it to prove the Holy Bible prophecy wrong. Do you not agree?

Originally posted by finnegan
What is all this about [b] Gnostic atheists? Why are words bandied about so freely when it is so easy to check them out these days?

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “crea ...[text shortened]... e of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.[/b]

read my bio.

and/or this (which I am now adding to my bio.)

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/

Originally posted by RJHinds
What I know and you do not is that Allah is actually Satan the Devil.
Mohammed was deceived by an angel of light appearing to him. This
angel of light was Satan. Allah has no Son to create the heavens and
the earth and all living things like the true God. So Allah could not be
the creator God described in the Holy Bible and there is no other
scripture that is written by holy men, inspired of God.

Tyically intolerant ranting against Islam from a self styled Christian. Reminiscent of the Reformation argument that the Pope was the Anti Christ and of the violence that ensued from such abusive terms.

It is worth reminding everyone that a) Islam recognises the same (Old Testament) Bible as Jews and Christians, b) that Islam refers with respect and tolerance to the Jewish and Christian religions, referring to them as "people of the book" and c) that historically, Islam has indeed tolerated those religions while experiencing only intolerance in return.

Originally posted by googlefudge
read my bio.

and/or this (which I am now adding to my bio.)

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/

Okay I looked and I see what you are quoting. Forgive me but I have great trouble with people using long established words that have valid historical references and putting them to a new and very different use. It is not helpful and not really very intelligent.

For example, the Albigensian crusade wiped out followers of Gnosticism in the region that is now Southern France. They did not die for some nebulous opinion and it is helpful to know what belief system they held. It was Gnosticism.

It is just twaddle to recycle the word in this way, laziness squared.

Originally posted by finnegan
Okay I looked and I see what you are quoting. Forgive me but I have great trouble with people using long established words that have valid historical references and putting them to a new and very different use. It is not helpful and not really very intelligent.

For example, the Albigensian crusade wiped out followers of Gnosticism in the region that is ...[text shortened]... ld. It was Gnosticism.

It is just twaddle to recycle the word in this way, laziness squared.

Word definitions change all the time, and also have different definitions in different context. You can't be expected to use many words today in the same context as you could centuries ago.

EDIT: Before you argue against "Gnostic atheists", and claim it to be "laziness squared". I recommend you have a look at this by Stephen Fry about language:

YouTube

Originally posted by finnegan
Tyically intolerant ranting against Islam from a self styled Christian. Reminiscent of the Reformation argument that the Pope was the Anti Christ and of the violence that ensued from such abusive terms.

It is worth reminding everyone that a) Islam recognises the same (Old Testament) Bible as Jews and Christians, b) that Islam refers with respect and tol ...[text shortened]... lly, Islam has indeed tolerated those religions while experiencing only intolerance in return.

The following was compiled by Michael Lamb:
Quran: (Muslim Holy Book with Koran)

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make
them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change
them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is
Mighty, Wise."

[22:19-22] But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out
for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which
is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are
hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from
thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the
doom of burning.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make
firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who
disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip
of them.

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country.
Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Americans
who are like them."
- Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the Palestinian Fatwa Council

"Kill a settler every day.... Shoot at settlers everywhere.... Woe to you if
you let them reach their homes safely or travel safely on the roads.... I
want you to kill as many settlers as possible.... Do not pay attention to
what I say to the media, the television or public appearances. Pay attention
only to the written instructions that you receive from me."
- Yasser Arafat, addressing his people at a public event, July 2001

"I am ready to kill for the sake of my cause; wouldn't I lie for it?"
- Yasser Arafat

Quran:

[58:5] Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as
were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the
Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by 'Umar b.
al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say:
I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not
leave any but Muslim.

Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033: It has
been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of
Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify
that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and
they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and
property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by
law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor
do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay
the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of
subjection.

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to
you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who
guard (against evil).

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's
life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he
slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans
wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for
them in every stratagem

Quran: [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.

Terrorism is a logical outcome of putting the Qur'an into practice.

The Qur'an promotes permanent struggle against non-Muslims - or at least
until non-Muslims are converted to Islam, subjected to Islamic authority, or
killed. Below is a listing of relevant verses in the Qur'an.

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them.

(Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them
(Q.9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews,
humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax(Q. 9: 29).

It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion
except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water
(Q. 14: 17).

It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the
unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they
shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (Q.5: 34).

As for the disbelievers, it says that for them garments of fire shall be cut
and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is
in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with
hooked iron rods (Q. 22: 9).

Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tells clearly
that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q.3: 85).

It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5:11), calls them
najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that
non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3:
28).

Quran asks the Muslims to strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor
(Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

The holy Prophet demanded his follower to strike off the heads of the
disbelievers then after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up
the remaining captives (Q. 47: 4).

As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their
husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q.
4:34).

It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their
husbands (Q. 66:10).

It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228).

It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q.
4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness
is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282).

This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can
produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry up to four
views and gave them license to sleep with their slave maids and as many
captive women as they may have (Q. 4:3). He himself did just that. This is
why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and
allow themselves to rape their women.

Pakistani soldiers raped up to 250,000 Bangali women in 1971 after they
massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed
that Bangladeshis are unislamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic
regime of Iran rape the women and then kill them after calling them
apostates and the enemies of Allah.

Islam promises hell to non-Muslims 3:85, 4:56, 5:37, 5:72, 8:55, 9:28,15:2,
21:98-100, 22:19-22, 22:56-57, 25:17-19, 25:55, 29:53-55 31:13, 6:9,
68:10-13, 72:14- 15,

Islam warms against mixing with non-Muslims 2:21, 3:28, 3:118, 5:51, 5:144,
9:7, 9:28, 58:23, 60:4.

Islam calls on Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims 2:191, 2:193,4:66,
4:84, 5:33, 8:12, 8:15-18, 8:39, 8:59-60,8:65, 9:2-3, 9:5, 9:14,9:29, 9:39,
9:73, 9:111, 9:123, 25:52, 37:22-23, 47:4-5, 48:29,69:30-37.

Islam encourages the war against the non-Muslims by glorifying it 2:216,
9:41, 49:15, or by promising lust in paradise to the Shaheeds who die in
such a war 3:142, 3:157-158, 9:20--21.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The following was compiled by Michael Lamb:
Quran: (Muslim Holy Book with Koran)

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make
them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change
them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is
Mighty, Wise."

[22:19-22] But as for tho ...[text shortened]... st in paradise to the Shaheeds who die in
such a war 3:142, 3:157-158, 9:20--21.

Your country promises glory to those who fight against its principles, same same!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Your country promises glory to those who fight against its principles, same same!

Explain please. I am not aware of such action.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The following was compiled by Michael Lamb:
Quran: (Muslim Holy Book with Koran)

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make
them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change
them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is
Mighty, Wise."

[22:19-22] But as for tho ...[text shortened]... st in paradise to the Shaheeds who die in
such a war 3:142, 3:157-158, 9:20--21.

What an unpleasant rant.

I wonder what mental contortion is required to apply this type of selective, context free abuse against Islam without opening the way for comparable rants against Chritianity - of which there are a good sample on this Forum of course? Or may I recommend Chris Hitchins Atheist Handbook for a terrific and extended rant against any and every religion, some of which is also very funny.

As an atheist (not a Gnostic of course) I am not averse to negative criticism of religion which has a place. However that rather depends on what the intention behind the criticism might be and how it is presented. It has a place when seeking to reduce undemocratic oppression at the hands of religious cliques of every shade. Sadly, I have learned that it is more often used to close minds than to open them and besides, it is often either anachronistic (arguing against opinions that belong only in the history books) or alternatively perceived (and frankly intended) as an attack on a culture rather than a considered opinion.

In the way used here however, it is entirely sectarian and vicious in its impact. As such it merges (to my mind) into racism. Certainly this is not an age in which rants against Islam can be considered socially neutral. The issues are too important for trite ranting.

Assuming that "The Other" is inherently evil is dehumanising and insulting, opening the gates to violence and oppression. Naturally "The Other" can be expected to respond in kind.

Originally posted by lausey
Word definitions change all the time, and also have different definitions in different context. You can't be expected to use many words today in the same context as you could centuries ago.

EDIT: Before you argue against "Gnostic atheists", and claim it to be "laziness squared". I recommend you have a look at this by Stephen Fry about language:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

There is, I agree, no doubt as to what "less" means in the shop sign "Five items or less."

The job of language is clarity, to permit intelligent and intelligible discourse. What matters is not "is this correct?" (I agree with Fry) but "is this effective?" or even "is this just plain confusing and unhelpful?"

I do not agree that it does not matter what "Gnostic" means. If some new author wants to ascribe a new meaning, one which is at odds with its history, then I wonder if they are not better advised to think carefully about a more effective alternative, one which is more immediately intelligible.

In this case you want Gnostic to be the opposite of Agnostic and it is not. If we take an agnostic to be on who does not claim to know whether a God does or does not exist, then I am afraid the word for one who does claim to know is "theist".

However, you want to distinguish the act of believing (theism), from the position of claiming it is possible to know, so that I might claim either : I do / not believe in a God or alternatively, I do / not believe it is possible to know if there is or is not a God.

In that case I am not sure that an Agnostic is actually required to belong to the category of those thinking it is not possible to know. An Agnostic need only claim that they personally do not know.

So both terms (Agnostic and Gnostic) have meanings which are not properly employed in the model you offer.

Does that matter or is it hair splitting? It matters to me because I do not belong to the highly selective population of those impressed by your source and I think these words (both of them) already cause so much confusion that adding a new layer of confusion is silly.

A good test of whether a word is used effectively or in a confusing way is if you have to refer a literate person to an article setting out its meaning before it can be grasped. Also if such a person has very good reason for thinking your word means something quite different to your intention that is not a good indicator of successful communication - it indicates confusion and futility.

So then I have to wonder if the source is sufficiently authoritative to have the licence to print new meanings in this way, or is the source just a pretentious waffler and on this occasion I go for the latter.

It is plain lazy and better alternatives surely do exist if you are, as Fry says, sufficiently interested in words to seek them out, both for their utility and for the pleasure of it. After all, the first task, if you want to communicate, is to choose your words.

Originally posted by finnegan
There is, I agree, no doubt as to what "less" means in the shop sign "Five items or less."

The job of language is clarity, to permit intelligent and intelligible discourse. What matters is not "is this correct?" (I agree with Fry) but "is this effective?" or even "is this just plain confusing and unhelpful?"

I do not agree that it does not matter wha sted in words to seek them out, both for their utility and for the pleasure of it.

That was not my source, I don't claim it as authoritative, it is one of many places where the word is used in such a way.
It's what I found after a rapid google search for the term.
I didn't make it up, I came across it in numerous places in the atheist/skeptic/free thought community.
Notable users of the term are Matt Dillahunty and Aaron Rah


another website talking about this issue is here.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._agnostic

The meanings of words are often multiple, and vary in context, and change over time.
This is a valid and currently used meaning of the word and is completely contextually clear.


So shove your pretensions up your arse, and get over it.

EDIT:
http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-tv-show/aron-ra-what-we-can-and-cannot-honestly-say-we-know-5016609

Originally posted by finnegan
What an unpleasant rant.

I wonder what mental contortion is required to apply this type of selective, context free abuse against Islam without opening the way for comparable rants against Chritianity - of which there are a good sample on this Forum of course? Or may I recommend Chris Hitchins Atheist Handbook for a terrific and extended rant against any ...[text shortened]... gates to violence and oppression. Naturally "The Other" can be expected to respond in kind.

The evil actions and beliefs of the false prophet Mohammed is difficult
for some to swallow, but the best medicine for that is the truth pill.

Originally posted by Nicksten
Yes you are right in all of this. And it will be difficult to proof that the answers I am giving on behalf of Christianity are the correct ones, even though i believe them to be. And even if everyone believed in a God it too would be difficult to proof which God as there are many.

There is no other religion that matches that of Christianity and plus the ...[text shortened]... for us all but the end of our lives will finally answer our questions - but who can we tell 🙂

You said:

There is no other religion that matches that of Christianity and plus the Bible offers eternal live after death with the Creator whom has created all of this. I am taking my chances and living according to the Biblical laws - and by following these rules and laws will only make me an those following it a better person I believe. None of the laws within the Bible are ridiculous to not follow, and once you get to know what God actually stands for (which is love) you have got nothing to loose.

and a Muslim could equally say:

There is no other religion that matches that of Islam and plus the Koran offers eternal live after death with the Creator whom has created all of this. I am taking my chances and living according to the Islamic laws - and by following these rules and laws will only make me an those following it a better person I believe. None of the laws within the Koran are ridiculous to not follow, and once you get to know what God actually stands for (which is love) you have got nothing to loose.

and would be just as likely to be right. So you take your chances with the Christian god and when you die you find yourself cast down with the atheists.

There is nothing that makes Christianity more unique or special than any other religion. No religion matches that of Christianity in the same way that none matches Islam, Buddhism or Zoroastrianism.

Again, why do you think you follow Christianity instead of Islam? Is it because you are privy to some objective evidence which would convert the Muslim if he was aware of it? Or is it just that your parent were Christian, or your school teachers, or your college friends, or that there was a Church nearby and no mosque during a dark period of your life when you needed emotional support?

--- Penguin.