Spirituality
30 Dec 11
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02 Jan 12
2nd Law thermodynamics, and why it doesn't preclude evolution.
Consider a 'house of cards' ...
http://blog.webair.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/House-of-cards.jpg
It takes lots of time, concentration and, ENERGY, to build the house of cards.
It takes very little to knock it down.
The built house of cards has low entropy, (it is highly ordered)
and the collapsed house of cards has high entropy, (it is disordered).
However it is possible to re-build the house of cards thus moving the cards from
high to low entropy, making them less disordered, and reducing their entropy.
How can this happen if entropy must always increase?
Because entropy must always increase in a closed system, this doesn't mean it must
always increase everywhere all the time.
It takes energy to reduce entropy, in this case the energy expended by the person
building the house of cards, and they will have produced heat (entropy) while building
the house of cards that exceeded the entropy loss of the cards.
Thus in the person card system entropy will have gone up.
In the case of the earth, we have a huge external energy source (the sun) that provides energy
for us to locally reduce the entropy on the earth.
This is more than made up for by the massive amounts of entropy generated by the sun.
Creating order (reducing entropy) takes energy, we have the energy coming from the sun, and
the energy generated in the earth's core, both of which are gaining in entropy, to enable the
local reduction of entropy of life and it's environs on earth's surface.
Anyone claiming that the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution, understands
neither evolution, nor thermodynamics.
I have almost no hope that RJHinds will ever comprehend this, blinded as he is by his faith,
but I post this for others who might be more open minded.
02 Jan 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeThe Holy Bible identifes God as the source of all Energy and the One that
2nd Law thermodynamics, and why it doesn't preclude evolution.
Consider a 'house of cards' ...
http://blog.webair.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/House-of-cards.jpg
It takes lots of time, concentration and, ENERGY, to build the house of cards.
It takes very little to knock it down.
The built house of cards has low entropy, (it is highly ordere ...[text shortened]... blinded as he is by his faith,
but I post this for others who might be more open minded.
holds it all together. It is His call as to when this world will end and He
will create a new one. The Holy Bible along with the laws He put in place
disproves evolution and one of those laws is the second law of
thermodynamics, like it or not. 😏
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02 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsNope.
The Holy Bible identifies God as the source of all Energy and the One that
holds it all together. It is His call as to when this world will end and He
will create a new one. The Holy Bible along with the laws He put in place
disproves evolution and one of those laws is the second law of
thermodynamics, like it or not. 😏
Circular argument.
Bible says god exists,
god says x.
x proves bible.
bible proves god.... ect.
You have to externally demonstrate that your god exists before that argument holds.
Till then you have disproved nothing.
Also you can't claim the laws of physics when it suits you as evidence for your argument
and then dismiss the laws of physics when it doesn't.
You don't get to pick and chose which bits of science are valid, or when they apply.
This is known as being a hypocrite.
Science and reason don't support the existence of any god, let alone your specific one.
Until solid evidence for god is discovered this will always be so.
This is why scientists are proportionately one of the least theistic sections of society.
The second law of thermodynamics is an empirical law, and an emergent one.
It is a result of the system, not a governing principle of it.
It is simply a result of the fact that it is harder to make things more ordered than to make
them disordered (applying the specific and precise definitions of information theory).
There is no inbuilt rule that makes things gain entropy, it's a result of the properties of the system.
If I take a cup of red powdered dye and pour it into the glass of water (and stir it in) then I now have a
glass of red coloured water.
Taking the red dye back out of the water and getting it back in the cup, while leaving a completely clear
and clean glass of water is vastly harder, and takes vastly more effort and energy.
This is what the second law of thermodynamics codifies.
Nothing about it precludes life, or evolution.
If your view of thermodynamics were correct, it would be impossible to build anything, as constructing a
building involves creating structures with lower entropy than their constituent parts.
Originally posted by RJHindsand you remain ignorant of the 2n'd law of thermodynamics.
The Holy Bible identifes God as the source of all Energy and the One that
holds it all together. It is His call as to when this world will end and He
will create a new one. The Holy Bible along with the laws He put in place
disproves evolution and one of those laws is the second law of
thermodynamics, like it or not. 😏
tell me, do you have any idea whatsoever what a closed/isolated system means? this should be easy for you, think of your brain. since you have stopped accepting new ideas, your brain has slipped into increasing disorder.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou forget there other laws of thermodynamics, such as the first law.
and you remain ignorant of the 2n'd law of thermodynamics.
tell me, do you have any idea whatsoever what a closed/isolated system means? this should be easy for you, think of your brain. since you have stopped accepting new ideas, your brain has slipped into increasing disorder.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeI do not have to prove God exists. The creation should be proof enough
Nope.
Circular argument.
Bible says god exists,
god says x.
x proves bible.
bible proves god.... ect.
You have to externally demonstrate that your god exists before that argument holds.
Till then you have disproved nothing.
Also you can't claim the laws of physics when it suits you as evidence for your argument
and then dismiss ...[text shortened]... a
building involves creating structures with lower entropy than their constituent parts.
the Creator God exists.
What law of Physics have I dismissed and how does it disprove what I have stated?
Who, in your opinion, gets to chose which bits of science are valid, or when
they apply? I bet it is you and the evolutionary scientists, right?
It is the existence of these laws and our own reason that supports the
existence of a law giver. There is no need to discover solid evidence of God
because you and I and the sun, the moon, and the earth is solid evidence
enough.
The fact that it is harder to make things more ordered than to make
them disordered is strong evidence against evolution by chance and for the
Creator God to put them in order.
In your example of the colored water, I think you are confusing the second
law of thermodynamics with the first law, dealing with the conservation of
energy, or perhaps something else.
The second law does not prevent building anything. It only effects things
left alone and not maintained.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsi haven't forgotten it. it's irrelevant to the discussion of entropy regarding earth. you completely disregarded that earth is not a closed system even after being told repeatedly.
You forget there other laws of thermodynamics, such as the first law.
ergo as living proof of the 2nd law, your mind is a closed system suffering from entropy. there is no hope for you until you can admit this gross error on your part and withdraw your absurd claim that evolution is not possible due to the 2nd law.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThe whole universe is a closed system for your information. God has
i haven't forgotten it. it's irrelevant to the discussion of entropy regarding earth. you completely disregarded that earth is not a closed system [b]even after being told repeatedly.
ergo as living proof of the 2nd law, your mind is a closed system suffering from entropy. there is no hope for you until you can admit this gross error on your part and withdraw your absurd claim that evolution is not possible due to the 2nd law.[/b]
closed it. That is why stars will become dead and the sun also.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsThere is a new book coming out: "How to enchant your carpet to fly". Now before you dismiss it as nonsense, i must ask you: how do you know? i think it might be a good book for more information i can use to help magic skeptics overcome their shortcomings.
How do you know? I think it might be a good book for more information
I can use to help atheists and evolutionists overcome their shortcomings.
😏
P.S. You can read the chapter on Carbon Dating here without buying
the book.\\
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter4.pdf
"You can read the chapter on Carbon Dating here without buying
the book"
i skimmed it: lots of misinterpretations, omissions and overall ignorance. this however stopped me from reading further:
"Also, the Genesis Flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance."
you claim it is a science book, yet it uses an unverified hypothesis to prove another? but scientists using isotope dating that is a scientifically verified method are wrong?
dude, you are hopeless. don't worry though, believing in nonsense like the flood will not cause you to die or go hungry. you will be laughed at and ridiculed, but nobody died from that alone so you will be fine.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by ZahlanziThe section on carbon dating was ridiculous to me too. I have read through around 80% of the book, and it doesn't get any better. It is enlightening though, in the "I cannot understand how people really believe this" kind of way.
There is a new book coming out: "How to enchant your carpet to fly". Now before you dismiss it as nonsense, i must ask you: how do you know? i think it might be a good book for more information i can use to help magic skeptics overcome their shortcomings.
"You can read the chapter on Carbon Dating here without buying
the book"
i skimmed it: lots ...[text shortened]... u will be laughed at and ridiculed, but nobody died from that alone so you will be fine.
Especially that the writer takes the bible literally. Even the contradictions aren't metaphors and explains it away in very bizarre ways, which involves ridiculing science to the extreme. Distorting his view of reality so much as to make the bible "fit".
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsDepends on where you stand regarding multiverses of course.
The whole universe is a closed system for your information. God has
closed it. That is why stars will become dead and the sun also.
I liked this Wikipedia quote:
"A common feature of all four multiverse levels is that the simplest and arguably most elegant theory involves parallel universes by default. To deny the existence of those universes, one needs to complicate the theory by adding experimentally unsupported processes and ad hoc postulates: finite space, wave function collapse and ontological asymmetry. Our judgment therefore comes down to which we find more wasteful and inelegant: many worlds or many words. Perhaps we will gradually get used to the weird ways of our cosmos and find its strangeness to be part of its charm."
I suspect that "many words" will win hands down on this thread! 😀
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03 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsWell no the universe is not proof of a creator, but even if it were, it doesn't prove (and check back to
I do not have to prove God exists. The creation should be proof enough
the Creator God exists.
what I actually said) YOUR god exists.
At most the universe would be evidence that A creator exists, nothing about it says that it has to be
YOUR god.
03 Jan 12
Originally posted by ZahlanziI see your flag is Romania. That was part of the old Soviet Union.
There is a new book coming out: "How to enchant your carpet to fly". Now before you dismiss it as nonsense, i must ask you: how do you know? i think it might be a good book for more information i can use to help magic skeptics overcome their shortcomings.
"You can read the chapter on Carbon Dating here without buying
the book"
i skimmed it: lots ...[text shortened]... u will be laughed at and ridiculed, but nobody died from that alone so you will be fine.
They developed some good gymnist. Nadia Comaneci comes to mind.
The atheistic communist system didn't do to well in the intellectual
creativity department , however. The Russian had a very good chess
school and produced the greatest Chess Player in the world, Garry
Kasparov, however he was Jewish. Who else came out of Romania?