30 Jun 10
Originally posted by Conrau KSo you say yourself that God prohibits idols here right? Do you really have the correct understanding of the word idol and image?
[b] The Bible is extremely clear on God's viewpoint on idols of any kind. If the othesr associate with a religion that posses them then they are involved in idolitry.
Yes, everyone is well aware of God's prohibition of idols. Can you explain, however, how the cross is an idol? What, for example, distinguishes a cross in a church from the images of th ...[text shortened]... treated the object. Hence, I should think, Protestant Christians are not guilty of idolatry.[/b]
Marriam Webster:
Main Entry: idol
Pronunciation: \ˈī-dəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French idle, from Late Latin idolum, from Greek eidōlon image, idol; akin to Greek eidos form — more at idyll
Date: 13th century
1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : pretender, impostor
3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance <an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol — P. B. Shelley>
4 : an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>; also : ideal 2
5 : a false conception : fallacy
Britannica😕everal forms of idolatry have been distinguished. Gross, or overt, idolatry consists of explicit acts of reverence addressed to a person or an object—the sun, the king, an animal, a statue. This may exist alongside the acknowledgment of a supreme being; e.g., Israel worshiped the golden calf at the foot of Mount Sinai, where it had encamped to receive the Law and ... (100 of 472 words)
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idol
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | 2008 | The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2008 Columbia University Press. (Hide copyright information) Copyright
idol an object, frequently an image, which is worshiped as a deity. Idols are usually found in human or animal form and may be treated as though alive; they are fed, bathed, anointed, crowned, and sometimes even provided with a consort. Christians and Jews extend the term to include any deity other than their own; theologically, however, idol worship is generally applied to the adoration of what is seen and tangible as opposed to the worship of an unseen spiritual being.
Just a few here but there are many to look up. But are not the crosses in the churches and ones that people may have in their possesion an image or representation of the so called cross that Jesus was killed on?
And I just read a comment that someone made that I hadn't thought about it in this way............
.
"Why are some religions so hung up on the cross and not move on to the future? Jesus died and was resurrected and went back to heaven. He moved on to do his thing in heaven as we all should know by now. That cross was a stinking piece of wood that should have been burned because of who was murdered on it but yet many adore this crummy thing for some strange reason. Make huge ones and put the dang things on top of their buildings, hang them on their necks, cry all over them, get germs from millions of germy people kissing it and all the while seem to think he's still suffering somehow nailed to the gross thing. Wake up people and get over it."
Lol.....I agree.
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30 Jun 10
Originally posted by galveston75As I thought. You acknowledge that idolatry involves worship. The Israelites did not worship the images of the cherubims and therefore were not guilty of idolatry. Again, what about Protestant Christians who do not bow, kiss or venerate the cross? Your definition provided here only seems to confirm that they are not guilty of idolatry.
So you say yourself that God prohibits idols here right? Do you really have the correct understanding of the word idol and image?
Marriam Webster:
Main Entry: idol
Pronunciation: \ˈī-dəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French idle, from Late Latin idolum, from Greek eidōlon image, idol; akin to Greek ...[text shortened]... omehow nailed to the gross thing. Wake up people and get over it."
Lol.....I agree.
01 Jul 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOh my....your way to smart to not see the differance. Take care....
As I thought. You acknowledge that idolatry involves worship. The Israelites did not worship the images of the cherubims and therefore were not guilty of idolatry. Again, what about Protestant Christians who do not bow, kiss or venerate the cross? Your definition provided here only seems to confirm that they are not guilty of idolatry.
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01 Jul 10
Originally posted by galveston75I am sorry, but I do not see the difference nor did Manny, Jaywill, Joseph or Deucer who have all asked you in what way they could possibly be accused of idolatry. All you have done is shroud the issue with smokescreen, trying to make this an issue about Catholic veneration or else simply restating definitions of idolatry. If the difference between the cross and the cherabim is so obvious, it should be quite easy to explain it.
Oh my....your way to smart to not see the differance. Take care....
01 Jul 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOk Conrau..I don't know how to put it any simpler. I wish I could.
I am sorry, but I do not see the difference nor did Manny, Jaywill, Joseph or Deucer who have all asked you in what way they could possibly be accused of idolatry. All you have done is shroud the issue with smokescreen, trying to make this an issue about Catholic veneration or else simply restating definitions of idolatry. If the difference between the cross and the cherabim is so obvious, it should be quite easy to explain it.
The items your speaking of were commissionend by God himself. They were never to be used in any form of direct worship. Not to be venerated, given honor too, bowed down to, kissed..etc, etc.
The cross first of all was probably not what Jesus even died on but as some say that's not important. Probably not to you.
The cross was never commisioned by God or by Jesus when he was on earth. That would have been the perfect time to let us know that we could now use an object, statue,etc, to use in our worhipping God or giving honor to his son. But it never happened. Jesus said the only way to his Father is thru him. No other way.
The cross has more then enough proof that it has paganistic beginnings. A very simple search on the internet shows this.
Jesus warned that false teachings and customs would be accepted wrongly into the congregations after he was gone. The use of the cross and many other objects and customs are proof that Jesus was correct.
And so far...you or no one esle has proved any of this wrong by scriptures from the Bible. Why Conrau? If you believe this so strongly, show by scriptures from God's word that it is so.....
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01 Jul 10
Originally posted by galveston75Ok, well there is a start. Idolatry is not merely the worship of created objects; it is the possessions of objects not explicitly commanded by God, even without worship. So, as I suggested earlier, almost everything must be idolatrous, whether it is the dove of peace, the Icthus fish, or the American flag. All these may appear in or outside a church and therefore, since they lack God's scriptural approval, must be idolatrous.
Ok Conrau..I don't know how to put it any simpler. I wish I could.
The items your speaking of were commissionend by God himself. They were never to be used in any form of direct worship. Not to be venerated, given honor too, bowed down to, kissed..etc, etc.
The cross first of all was probably not what Jesus even died on but as some say that's not im ...[text shortened]... onrau? If you believe this so strongly, show by scriptures from God's word that it is so.....
Not to be venerated, given honor too, bowed down to, kissed..etc, etc.
Galvo, I am not sure whether you are forgetful, dumb or something else. I have told you several times now that we are not discussing Christians who venerate, give honor, kiss or bow down to the cross. Can you please confirm that you understand this amazingly simple point?
The cross has more then enough proof that it has paganistic beginnings. A very simple search on the internet shows this.
As I have explained before, the internet is not an authority on anything. Certain authors might be; certain websites might be. But the merits of their opinions depend on the strength of their arguments. Consequently, I am not going to rely on random internet sites suggesting the cross has a pagan origin, unless the authors are relevantly qualified and provide strong evidence.
01 Jul 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI'm not responding to you until you show by """""scripture"""""" that we are to use the cross in any way.....
Ok, well there is a start. Idolatry is not merely the worship of created objects; it is the possessions of objects not explicitly commanded by God, even without worship. So, as I suggested earlier, almost everything must be idolatrous, whether it is the dove of peace, the Icthus fish, or the American flag. All these may appear in or outside a church and the ...[text shortened]... ss has a pagan origin, unless the authors are relevantly qualified and provide strong evidence.
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01 Jul 10
Originally posted by galveston75I have already done so. Ezekiel 9:4:
I'm not responding to you until you show by """""scripture"""""" that we are to use the cross in any way.....
Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) and mark an X (lit: the taw) on the foreheads of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it.
Anyway, whether it has any scriptural basis is irrelevant however. I am addressing your claim that all Christians who use the cross are necessarily idolatrous, even when they do not worship it. If you want to change the debate, into something about the merit of using the cross, fine. Just be honest that you are changing the topic.
01 Jul 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWhat? Is that it? Oh my. You have to do better then that. I show you scripture after scripture against idolatry and you come up with this? Take care buddy and "believe the Bible" not mans customs. Take care.....
I have already done so. Ezekiel 9:4:
Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) and mark an X (lit: the taw) on the foreheads of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it.
Anyway, whether it has any scriptural basis is irrelevant however. I am addressing your claim that all Christians who use the cross are necessa ...[text shortened]... thing about the merit of using the cross, fine. Just be honest that you are changing the topic.
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01 Jul 10
Originally posted by galveston75I am not arguing against the prohibition on idolatry (how many times have I needed to say that?) I am arguing against your two claims that, 1. the cross is pagan and 2. the cross is idolatrous. The cross clearly has precedent in the Hebrew Scripture, refuting the first point, and does not meet any definition of idolatry, refuting the second.
What? Is that it? Oh my. You have to do better then that. I show you scripture after scripture against idolatry and you come up with this? Take care buddy and "believe the Bible" not mans customs. Take care.....