Cross????

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no once was quite enough, infact, more than enough

(Psalm 119:37) . . .Make my eyes pass on from seeing what is worthless. . .

So you did understand what I wrote.
Good your read it once again.

Originally posted by galveston75
"So a good Catholic may never venerate the cross." Lol....Sure!

More from the Catholic Encycl:

"A processional cross is simply a crucifix which is carried at the head of a procession, and which, that it may be more easily seen, is usually mounted upon a long staff or handle.

From an archaeological point of view this subject has already been b ...[text shortened]... events and different ones you may get to use depending on your rank in the church. Wow!

No importance on the cross?

I never said it wasn't important; I only said that it was not necessary to venerate the cross in order to be saved. I'm really struggling to understand why you find this dictinction so enormously difficult.

Why not Jesus or some symbol of God? Nope..it's the cross.

The cross is the symbol of Jesus and the Trinity.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b] No importance on the cross?

I never said it wasn't important; I only said that it was not necessary to venerate the cross in order to be saved. I'm really struggling to understand why you find this dictinction so enormously difficult.

Why not Jesus or some symbol of God? Nope..it's the cross.

The cross is the symbol of Jesus and the Trinity.[/b]

"""The cross is the symbol of Jesus and the Trinity"""

Again I ask you such an easy question and you still never answer it. Where in the Bible does it tell us that it's so, and that we are supposed to honor and venerate it????? Please scriptures only or don't answer.

In other words, show me from the Bible like I was a student wanting to learn and have you teach me from the Bible why I should look at the cross and honor it the way you do....

Originally posted by galveston75
"""The cross is the symbol of Jesus and the Trinity"""

Again I ask you such an easy question and you still never answer it. Where in the Bible does it tell us that it's so, and that we are supposed to honor and venerate it????? Please scriptures only or don't answer.

In other words, show me from the Bible like I was a student wanting to learn and ...[text shortened]... u teach me from the Bible why I should look at the cross and honor it the way you do....

Where in the Bible does it tell us that it's so, and that we are supposed to honor and venerate it????? Please scriptures only or don't answer.

The Scripture doesn't say it. I don't deny it.

Hey, why don't you answer my questions? Why don't you admit that Protestant Christians, by your definition, are not guilty of idolatry? Why don't you admit that Catholics are not required to venerate the cross? Oh, that's right, because your bigoted prejudice thrives on these stereotypes and your whole faith feeds on your ignorance of other faiths.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Where in the Bible does it tell us that it's so, and that we are supposed to honor and venerate it????? Please scriptures only or don't answer.

The Scripture doesn't say it. I don't deny it.

Hey, why don't you answer my questions? Why don't you admit that Protestant Christians, by your definition, are not guilty of idolatry? Why don't you admi rives on these stereotypes and your whole faith feeds on your ignorance of other faiths.[/b]

Oh..sounds like someone is getting embarresed because they can't back up what they believe with the Bible. I wonder if that could mean..it's not a Bible teaching? If it's not from the Bible, God's Bible, then who is behind it? God's enemy, Satan?

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/latin.html

If they use it..then it's idolotry.

Originally posted by galveston75
Oh..sounds like someone is getting embarresed because they can't back up what they believe with the Bible. I wonder if that could mean..it's not a Bible teaching? If it's not from the Bible, God's Bible, then who is behind it? God's enemy, Satan?

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/latin.html

If they use it..then it's idolotry.

I believe I have explained this before. Scripture as well as Tradition are sources of doctrine for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Unlike you, they do not believe that they were abandoned by the Holy Spirit. They take the early Christians in the Book of Acts as their example.

Your article raises a good point. Catholics generally venerate the cross with the corpus. So, on Good Friday, when they venerate the cross, Jesus is depicted on it. Every altar must also be adorned with a cross mounted with Jesus' body. So when you asked why Catholics do not have Jesus rather than the cross, you were mistaken. Catholics have both.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I believe I have explained this before. Scripture as well as Tradition are sources of doctrine for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Unlike you, they do not believe that they were abandoned by the Holy Spirit. They take the early Christians in the Book of Acts as their example.

Your article raises a good point. Catholics generally venerate the c why Catholics do not have Jesus rather than the cross, you were mistaken. Catholics have both.

2 Tim 3:16. "All scripture is inspired by God."

As opposed by these scriptures....

Matt 15:3. "Over stepping commandments of God with mans TRADITIONS."
Mark 7:13. " Making the word of God invalid by your TRADITIONS."
Gal 1:13,14. "Zealous for the TRADITIONS of my Forefathers."
Col 2:8. Caried off by the TRADITIONS of men."

Well it would appear by these scriptures that the TRADITONS you speak of are not heald in a good light by God. Especially as you admit, they are not in the Bible.

I mean this as an honest compliment...Your to smart to fall for those traditions.....

Originally posted by galveston75
2 Tim 3:16. "All scripture is inspired by God."

As opposed by these scriptures....

Matt 15:3. "Over stepping commandments of God with mans TRADITIONS."
Mark 7:13. " Making the word of God invalid by your TRADITIONS."
Gal 1:13,14. "Zealous for the TRADITIONS of my Forefathers."
Col 2:8. Caried off by the TRADITIONS of men."

Well it woul ...[text shortened]...
I mean this as an honest compliment...Your to smart to fall for those traditions.....

Look, I don't want to get into this debate. I am not here to justify Catholic belief and, quite obviously, you know that. I will point out to you, however, that in the Book of Acts, the early church leaders had no gospels to read from. There was no New Testament. They believed that they were empowered by the Holy Spirit alone. A Catholic would simply argue that the Holy Spirit continues to be with the Church. Consequently, church Tradition is not man's tradition; it is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

I would point to you too that the Scriptures were written by men. But you would surely not think them to be man's traditions? No, you would say that the Scriptures had divine inspiration, despite their human origins. A Catholic would merely argue that God's inspiratioh extends beyond the publication of the Scriptures.

I am not sure why this simple issue has to be so complicated for you. Again, if a Protestant, or indeed a Catholic, never venerates the cross or has any devotional relationship to the cross, do you acknowledge that they are not guilty of idolatry?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Look, I don't want to get into this debate. I am not here to justify Catholic belief and, quite obviously, you know that. I will point out to you, however, that in the Book of Acts, the early church leaders had no gospels to read from. There was no New Testament. They believed that they were empowered by the Holy Spirit alone. A Catholic would simply argue votional relationship to the cross, do you acknowledge that they are not guilty of idolatry?

The point in the whole thing your missing is that God does not ever contradict himself and these traditions that the Catholic church follow completely go against the Bible. (And it's not just the cross but many, many other TRADITIONS ) Obviously you don't see that and it's very sad that you don't.... I'm done.

Originally posted by galveston75
The point in the whole thing your missing is that God does not ever contradict himself and these traditions that the Catholic church follow completely go against the Bible. (And it's not just the cross but many, many other TRADITIONS ) Obviously you don't see that and it's very sad that you don't.... I'm done.

That's not the point at all. You want to make this about Catholicism. I suspect your only reason is to save face, so that you can conceal your embarrassing ignorance of Protestant spirituality. By your own definitions, they are exempt from the charge of idolatry.

You want to bow out? Fine. But please save us your condescending pity. You know very little about Christianity and very little about Catholicism. Is veneration common in Catholicism? Yes. Is it necessary for salvation? Obviously not and you have failed to substantiate that claim. What a jerk.

Originally posted by Conrau K
That's not the point at all. You want to make this about Catholicism. I suspect your only reason is to save face, so that you can conceal your embarrassing ignorance of Protestant spirituality. By your own definitions, they are exempt from the charge of idolatry.

You want to bow out? Fine. But please save us your condescending pity. You know very little ...[text shortened]... y for salvation?[/i] Obviously not and you have failed to substantiate that claim. What a jerk.

It would appear my friend that you know very little about God and who he is. Take care..

Originally posted by galveston75
It would appear my friend that you know very little about God and who he is. Take care..

You may say so. However God was not the topic of this discussion. I was only concerned with your claims that the cross is pagan, that any use of the cross is idolatrous and that Catholics believe it necessary to venerate the cross in order to be saved. All three claims are dubious and you prove yourself peculiarly evasive at defending them. You simply want to change the subject.

Originally posted by galveston75
Absolutely. Can Jesus not be as important to us all without the cross or stake? If he isn't the same without some piece of wood he was killed on then how according to the Bible, not some man's concept, has this become an object that we should put so much importance on when none of the apostles or his followers did? Nothing was said of it again with even ...[text shortened]... ath on a stake? Was it just an accident or just something close at hand for the Romans to use?

Your missing the deeper meaning my friend. The main reason Jesus came to this earth was to die on the cross (stake what ever you want to believed it was) Your absolutely right worshiping a piece of wood is idolatrous at most and stupid at least. However Christ main reason was to be the sacrifice to please God the father. The Cross is the center point is God's history in dealing with man. He was the perfect lamb the perfect sacrifice to pay for sin. So really you have Christ without the cross but why is it talked about so much in the bible? (The English word for cross) The way of the cross is about sacrifice that is the deeper meaning. I love the story of Abraham when he was about to sacrifice his son But then God stopped him and provided a ram!! And that place was called "God will provide"!! This is a foreshadowing of Christ!!



Manny PS: have a safe 4th 🙂

Originally posted by menace71
Your missing the deeper meaning my friend. The main reason Jesus came to this earth was to die on the cross (stake what ever you want to believed it was) Your absolutely right worshiping a piece of wood is idolatrous at most and stupid at least. However Christ main reason was to be the sacrifice to please God the father. The Cross is the center point is God ...[text shortened]... od will provide"!! This is a foreshadowing of Christ!!



Manny PS: have a safe 4th 🙂

Yes you are right about Abraham. And in looking at God in willing to let his son die for us had to be the hardest thing God probaly has ever done. I hope I'd have love like that for another human to let my son die for them and unfortunently most humans never know about this sacrifice.
But I really think by studying the scriptures that Jesus really came as a ransom for all humans to have a way for our sins to be forgiven and to get back to having the chance to gain back what Adaam lost for us.
So I agree the cross or stake was something that had to be used to put Jesus to death but other then that the Bible gives no hint that we are to use it in any of our daily worship or prayers to God.
I asked Conrau to present anything from the Bible to show that but he wasn't able to. Take care...

Originally posted by galveston75
2 Tim 3:16. "All scripture is inspired by God."

As opposed by these scriptures....

Matt 15:3. "Over stepping commandments of God with mans TRADITIONS."
Mark 7:13. " Making the word of God invalid by your TRADITIONS."
Gal 1:13,14. "Zealous for the TRADITIONS of my Forefathers."
Col 2:8. Caried off by the TRADITIONS of men."

Well it woul ...[text shortened]...
I mean this as an honest compliment...Your to smart to fall for those traditions.....

Matthew 15:3 (New King James Version)

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? your text is a bad translation and taken out of context big difference between the two translations; tradition does not necessarily contradict God's word.


Mark 7: 13 (NKJ) 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do. and again a bad translation on your end and again taken out of context[/b]

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. it really helps if you actually quote the whole scripture here. Paul was merely following the traditions of the faith....as ascribed in the Old Testament. He was following scripture

Collasions 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. nothing deceitful about using a cross as a symbol and reminder of the atonement. Your interpretation here is tenuous at best.


Finally: beware of bibles that were translated with the purpose of "making clear" God's word. The unfortunate outcome is often a mistranslation in a zealous attempt to prove doctrinal differences.