Crosses, crucifixes and graven images

@667joe said
If Jesus were to return, I have a hunch that the last thing he would want to see would be a cross!

Yet another Simple Mind speaks.

@fmf said
Don't they?

No, they don't, regardless of what fantasyland you live in to justify your put-downs.

@rajk999 said
A graven image is anything made by human hands out of wood stone or metal and which is a representation of things in heaven, earth or under the sea. Your bogus definition of 'graven image' is what I do not understand.

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/sin/what-is-a-graven-image.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_make_unto_thee_any_graven_image

"Bogus definition". Uhhh, yeah, okay.

@rajk999 said
I dont need to look up definitions of simple words.

Apparently, you do.

@kellyjay said
There are a lot of things I don’t like about art and God. I hate the hallows around people’s heads, even when they paint them around Jesus’ head when He was a baby through adulthood. If someone looks at anything that they feel is somehow more than it is it can be an idol, trees, the planet 🌎.

If you are saying can someone treat these things as objects of worship, I will ...[text shortened]... say I agree. We can in our fallen state screw up anything making it something other than what it is.

Do you mean a halo?

A halo is just another symbol. A symbol of divinity.

@philokalia said
So would you be good with people worshiping natural reliefs as manifestations of Gods..?

Like, what is your stance on a natural Shivling, like the famous one at Amaranth?

https://magikindia.com/amarnath-pilgrimage/

Or how do you feel about ... paintings? You take no issue with the Orthodox kissing ikons and the likes, right?

I think most people feel that the r ...[text shortened]... orn as a symbol of one's relationship with God..? How would this be a violation of the commandment?

Yes, the concept of 'graven image' is the same as the concept of 'idolatry'. Graven images are just man-made images of something to be worshiped. Crosses (as used by Christians, so forget the talk of 'paganism' ) definitely do not fall into that category. Jesus the man was crucified ( "crux" ) by the Romans on a cross, as was common practice in 30 AD.

All this crying is simply a disassociation from the facts, for obvious personal reasons.

Saying that graven images don't necessarily mean idolatry is total misinformation.

@rajk999 said
You are fabricating definitions to suit your dogma.

Graven is anything cut or fashioned by human hands.

Image is a representation of some being or entity.

God said not to do it.

God said not to do it because it is idolatry.

Symbols aren't idols.

How do you keep missing this?


The Hebrew word פֶּסֶל means "graven image, or idol".

Clearly, they are the same thing.

@suzianne said
God said not to do it because it is idolatry.

Symbols aren't idols.

How do you keep missing this?


The Hebrew word פֶּסֶל means "graven image, or idol".

Clearly, they are the same thing.

You’ve already been shown that the crucifix is originally pagan, subsequently adopted by Christianity and elevated to a highly significant and symbolic image of something which should NOT be imaged.

It is a graven image.

@suzianne said
No, they don't, regardless of what fantasyland you live in to justify your put-downs.

But aren't these words you have typed nothing other than a point-ignoring put down?

@suzianne said
Do you mean a halo?

A halo is just another symbol. A symbol of divinity.

Yes, sorry halo, the thing about those symbols is they are about divinity, and when they are put on all the people involved it turns them into other worldly. That keeps it out of normal humanity historical events and makes all people in it not normal but something more. I dislike it even on Jesus since it removes His humanity which is the point why He came.

@suzianne said
Graven images are just man-made images of something to be worshiped. Crosses (as used by Christians, so forget the talk of 'paganism' ) definitely do not fall into that category.

forget the talk of 'paganism'

Why?

@suzianne said
Jesus the man was crucified ( "crux" ) by the Romans on a cross, as was common practice in 30 AD.

Is it OK to have graven images of Jesus?

@rajk999 said
Is there some reason that someone would need a ,,, a symbol of one's relationship with God.. If there is such a teaching of having symbols tin the bible,then please provide a reference. But ... Allow me to answer. God said that you do not need any such symbol to represent anything and that it is not to be done, God is to be worshiped in the manner specified in the bible. Symbols representing a relationship or people is never a recommended practice.

OK, I can accept being characterized as wearing an unnecessary symbol far more than being equated to an idolater!

I respect your minimalism but I think that symbols can be powerful reminders and that they can also actually teach us things through their relationship to the rest of the world. Like how the two axis of the cross represent our relationship with Heaven, and Earth, with God, and our Fellow Man; the vertical, the horizontal...

I think it is not appropriate to think of us as adding to the Bible by wearing symbols, painting ikons, making statues, ascribing meaning to symbols, etc., we are actually revealing God's role in our own lives, and the great providence of God and 'occasionalism,' or the interpenetration of the universe by God.

@fmf said
Is it OK to have graven images of Jesus?

You know you are wrong about Christianity when your theological position is identical to the ones that atheists are employing to make Christianity appear overbearing & foolish, always rejecting science and reason in favor of some parody of faith.

I doubt this is even what FMF believed when he was a Christian.

@philokalia said
You know you are wrong about Christianity when your theological position is identical to the ones that atheists are employing to make Christianity appear overbearing & foolish, always rejecting science and reason in favor of some parody of faith.I doubt this is even what FMF believed when he was a Christian.

You can make it about me if you choose to, that's your prerogative. The question you were purportedly replying to, however, is this: Is it OK to have graven images of Jesus? Are you answering yes it is, or no it isn't?