Cruel and unusual punishment

Originally posted by amannion
Hang on, did you just say that a biblical passage is NOT intended to be taken literally?
How do you decide when one is or isn't?
Isn't it God's decision to make and not yours?

I did not say that.
The bible is full of all the nuances of language. Metaphor, hyperbole, allegory, figurative, literal, spiritual. The rub of it is knowing the word. And that can take years of study.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:"

If you talk to people who study Shakespeare, do you listen and learn from their knowledge of all his works? Why is it that christians are treated as though they know nothing? It's probably due in large measure to the fact that so many of them disagree about virtually everything. And the reason for that is because the enemy doesn't want the world to know the truth!
I used to believe alot of things about the bible that aren't true, but after years of study, and more importantly, application, I can confidently say I have a pretty good handle on it. Although I have a long way to go.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
This is from the post that I replied to:
[b]If a man insults my wife, he won't do it a second time. If a man harms one of my children, it would be better if a millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

Rape? Murder? Murderer threatens his life?

You weren't speaking of trying to protect. You were speaking of vengeance.

What do you think Jesus is calling everyone to be?[/b]

You got me.
It does sound like vengeance. But it's not. It's justice.

Originally posted by josephw
You got me.
It does sound like vengeance. But it's not. It's justice.

Maybe it sounds like vengeance because it is. Most who seek vengeance think that it's justified. That it's "justice".

A man kills another because he looked at him the "wrong way". The man shouldn't have disrespected him. Justified.

A man takes a woman to dinner. Afterward she rejects his advances. He rapes her. She shouldn't have "led him on". Justified.

And so on.

Don't you think that Jesus understood this? He's speaking to YOU.

Originally posted by josephw
I did not say that.
The bible is full of all the nuances of language. Metaphor, hyperbole, allegory, figurative, literal, spiritual. The rub of it is knowing the word. And that can take years of study.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:"

If you talk to people who study Shakespeare, do you listen and learn ...[text shortened]... I can confidently say I have a pretty good handle on it. Although I have a long way to go.

Right, so basically what you're saying is that it's to be taken literally, but you have to read some stuff into what's actually written there, and if you don't understand that it's just because you haven't spent long enough studying it.
I never treat christians as if they know nothing.
I do treat biblical literalists like that though - you have absolutely no defensible position.
If anyone gets through your circular and illogical reasoning you resort to 'you wouldn't understand' arguments.

Originally posted by amannion
Right, so basically what you're saying is that it's to be taken literally, but you have to read some stuff into what's actually written there, and if you don't understand that it's just because you haven't spent long enough studying it.
I never treat christians as if they know nothing.
I do treat biblical literalists like that though - you have absolutely ...[text shortened]... our circular and illogical reasoning you resort to 'you wouldn't understand' arguments.

What I'm saying is the bible is really like any other piece of literature, with one exception. It was written by men inspired by God to communicate his message to us, and it is a spiritual document that requires spiritual discernment to grasp it's spiritual meanings.
If you want to say I'm using circular reasoning, and the "you can't understand it, because you lack the spiritual capacity, because you haven't trusted Christ, with the subsequent infilling of God's Spirit argument", then there's nothing I can say.

Besides, this whole argument is meaningless as long as I believe there's a God, and you don't.

This debate is beginning to drive me nuts. 🙄

Originally posted by josephw
What I'm saying is the bible is really like any other piece of literature, with one exception. It was written by men inspired by God to communicate his message to us, and it is a spiritual document that requires spiritual discernment to grasp it's spiritual meanings.
If you want to say I'm using circular reasoning, and the "you can't understand it, because ...[text shortened]... ieve there's a God, and you don't.

This debate is beginning to drive me nuts. 🙄

So now it was only inspired by God. That's a change of tune from being written by God isn't it?
You can'thave it both ways - did God inspire the writers or did God actually write it?
If it's divinely inspired how can you trust that the writer's interpretation of their divine inspiration is real? Maybe they got a bit wrong here or there.
I'm not disputing the spiritual veracity of the biblical texts - clearly I'd be idiotic to do so. But the clambouring to hold to the literal interpretation of every single word in any book is misguided at best and your attempts to argue yourself out of your corner demonstrate this.
What really interests me is why you need a literal bible at all. I know many Christians - most of my family are Christians - but none of them, none at all, believe in a literal bible. This does not shake their faith one bit - much as I might have ago at doing from time to time.
Why do you think they rest comfortably with such a view?

Originally posted by josephw
Or is your moral vision so pathetically limited that there is only room for hate and vengence in it?

This sounds like a good description of Satan.

You really lack the capacity to reason logically about this.

I am not the one agreeing with the proposition that eternal punishment by God is a good idea. I am disputing it, because it is morally repugnant and morally wrong.

So what does your glib turning back of the question to me mean? Is it your attempt at some sort of quip? I am the one arguing for the merits of forgiveness, and for the point that an omnibenevolent being, as God is supposed to be, would have no problem forgiving even an incurable reprobate like Satan.

It is immaterial whether Satan wants forgiveness or not. "Forgiveness" that depends on the attitude of the forgiven is not forgiveness at all. If you disagree, you misunderstand the concept. Consult a dictionary.

The fact that these simple points prove refractory to the understanding of you and your ilk suggests that your moral vision, however idealistically, is fundamentally corrupt.

The only difference between you and a suicide bomber is that you prefer that God does your dirty work for you on the next life, and you are content to wait instead of keen to act independently sooner, I know, you hide behind the weasally view that sinners self-impose hell, so God doesn't get any blame; but in your heart you want to believe that homosexuals and non-believers are going to get what is coming to them, in a system God set up, such that if they express their spontaneous sexual preferences or beliefs, then they incur the penalty of infinite and eternal pain.

Can you not tell me, as a fellow human being, equipped with a modicum of sympathy, that you *regret* this overall arrangement?

The fact that you can't speaks volumes. Suicide bombers have the same problem feeling and expressing regret for their innocent victims.

Originally posted by josephw
Why is it that christians are treated as though they know nothing?

The shoe fits?

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
The shoe fits?

Reminds me of the "Help us Katee Shoree" mug.

Originally posted by whodey
It sounds like you are in hell as we speak. Hell to me is nothing but seperation from God and God is referred to the source of all love and life. Therefore, if we choose to remain seperated from him, what are we choosing?

Its not really a fair choice though, is it? We are supposed to follow the directions found in a collection of books written a couple thousand years ago, and never get any actual evidence that what we are "choosing" actually exists.

You make it sound as if it is as simple as choosing door number one or door number two when in reality choosing God is like choosing the blank wall between the two doors.

So, God sets up the rules for the so called "choice" to be with him or not, and makes choosing him horribly difficult due to lack of evidence, and THEN (and this is really the kicker) if we happen to get confused or just don't understand why anyone would head for the space between the doors (God)...he removes our ability to ever get another chance to choose him *forever*, and he does this without ever having sufficiently announced his presence in the first place!

Geez...you can keep your god, he sounds like an evil Monty Hall, who incidentally, can't even seem to play by his own rules in the giant game of Let's Make Deal he created.