In the Gospel of Christ there is something that a person can get and there is something that a person cannot get.
First, a person gets to be forgiven of all his or her sins and be looked upon by God as if they had never sinned. They get to be looked upon by God as Christ Himself, He is their righteousness.
Then there is something that no one gets. The person forgiven does not get to remain the same kind of person he or she was as when they sinned.
Put another way:
God and the sinner are eternally incompatible. And God doesn't change. So the sinner must not only be forgiven. He must be transformed. She or he must be transformed into the image of Christ.
None can avoid being transformed. If Jesus doesn't finish the work of transformation in this present age, He will finish in the next age. But before the forgiven go into eternity, they will be transformed.
Originally posted by jaywillWell, if you truly believe in our Goddess Caïssa, and read the gospel of FIDE rules and belive it in your heart, then you actually can move each pawn two spaces once, under certain circumstances...
Fabian Enas are you there this morning?
One of the reasons that I don't like chess is that the pawn can only move one space. How in the world can you win a game with a pawn that only can move one space ?
Isn't your remark a liiittle off topic...?
Originally posted by FabianFnasYes, my remark seems off topic. But it illustrates the kind of mindset that I think you display.
Well, if you truly believe in our Goddess Caïssa, and read the gospel of FIDE rules and belive it in your heart, then you actually can move each pawn two spaces once, under certain circumstances...
Isn't your remark a liiittle off topic...?
That is you really don't seem interested in understanding anything about the New Testament beyond the meager amount necessary for you to justify not being a Christian.
In the same way, I restrict my supposed interest in chess to one single aspect. I claim that this one aspect renders the entire game sensless. It is incomplete knowledge. It biased knowledge. But it is handy for someone who needs rationalization to dismiss the entire game of chess.
So, this is one of the reasons you are glad that you are not a Christian. That is because someone as evil as Hitler might be saved at the end of his long evil career.
I am curious. Is this your best reason ? Or is this one of your inferior reasons but you have more weightier reasons ?
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Well, if you truly believe in our Goddess Caïssa, and read the gospel of FIDE rules and belive it in your heart, then you actually can move each pawn two spaces once, under certain circumstances...
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Now, that was clever. Shall we assume from this that it follows that you are also wise ?
Originally posted by jaywillIf I read your posting as shallow as you read mine - can I presume that it is unchristian to play chess?
Yes, my remark seems off topic. But it illustrates the kind of mindset that I think you display.
That is you really don't seem interested in understanding anything about the New Testament beyond the meager amount necessary for you to justify not being a Christian.
In the same way, I restrict my supposed interest in chess to one single aspect. I claim ...[text shortened]... our best reason ? Or is this one of your inferior reasons but you have more weightier reasons ?
Read my posting again, and see if you understand it better this time.
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Well, if you truly believe in our Goddess Caïssa, and read the gospel of FIDE rules and belive it in your heart, then you actually can move each pawn two spaces once, under certain circumstances...
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About the rules of chess, I do recall that little detail about the pawn. Of course might argue that I'd rather forget about that detail to bulster up my prejudice against the game.
But in like manner, assuming that the rules of FIDE are a logical parellel to the teaching of the New Testament, could you point out to me something ?
Where does it talk about the forgiven sinner going to heaven, even at the last minute of a long evil life? I mean what I read about salvation was not about going to heaven as you are but being "conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29)
Maybe, your overlooking that detail about salvation being the conformation to the image of the Son of God is akin to my not noticing the detail about the exception to the pawn's one space move.
In other words, Yes a sinner may be forgiven even if she believes into Christ at the end of a long life of sinning, but the goal of such a forgiveness is more involved then just transporting them as is to a happy place, ie "go to heaven".
It seems that the Maker of this plan of salvation is not so foolish as one would initially assume from a superfiscial and biased view of the plan of salvation.
Do you think it is unjust for God to provide one act of atonement for all the sins committed by all sinners at all time?
Do you think that God should have provided one Savior for you and your sins and another Savior for Hitler and his sins ?
I think ONE Lord and Savior of all provided for all men for all time and evrywhere, is God's perogative to establish by His authority.
Originally posted by jaywillYou keep bringing up the chess analogy. But I don't see how it applies to Fabian's point here. You are not denying his claim. From my reading of your posts, you have not denied that God's plan of salvation makes it possible for someone like Hitler to be saved, while others who have led far less evil lives can be damned.
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Well, if you truly believe in our Goddess Caïssa, and read the gospel of FIDE rules and belive it in your heart, then you actually can move each pawn two spaces once, under certain circumstances...
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About the rules of chess, I do recall that little detail about the p ...[text shortened]... or all men for all time and evrywhere, is God's perogative to establish by His authority.[/b]
Originally posted by stokerThey died upon their crosses, but the two on His sides had their legs broken not HIm.
it may come from the crusifiction, when jesus turned and said to one being with him in heaven.
If indeed this took place, he did not die upon the cross as they had there legs broken but doubt they knew that was going to happen.
In the OT there is one king who was on sick bed and god judged against him, he repented and was given another ten years of life, remember the story unsure who it was tho.
So we have the term death bed conversion
Originally posted by SwissGambit================================
You keep bringing up the chess analogy. But I don't see how it applies to Fabian's point here. You are not denying his claim. From my reading of your posts, you have not denied that God's plan of salvation makes it possible for someone like Hitler to be saved, while others who have led far less evil lives can be damned.
You keep bringing up the chess analogy.
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I brought up the chess analogy as a example of a flimsy reason to not like chess. Fabian's reasoning I think is likewise a flimsy one for not wanting to be a Christian, in like manner.
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But I don't see how it applies to Fabian's point here. You are not denying his claim.
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I am not denying the claim that all sins that men sin can be forgiven and that even at a late hour of one's life.
I am examining the implication that this plan is foolish because the offender, after all, gets to go to a happy place called Heaven immediately. This makes God look totally more foolish than what I perceive going on there in His plan of salvation.
The danger of living in one's sins all of one's life and postponing repentance is that it may not work. The heart grows harder and harder and harder. It is a fact that because divine judgment is not carried out immediately in the sinner's life, his heart is set more and more upon continuing to sin.
What happened to Hitler is between God and Hitler. None of us know. But a sinner can so harden his heart with continual postponement and rationalization, that even in the hour they would like to believe, they cannot. They have locked themselves into a labyrinth of reasonings.
Some people reading these discussions will probably one day desire to believe in Jesus late in thier lives. They may find that because they played around and played around amusing themselves with arguments, that they cannot now believe.
For this reason I believe the Bible warns "Seek the Lord while He can be found. Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord. And He will abundantly pardon ..."
"Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your heart ..."
There is something to seeking Christ while the Spirit of Christ is near. "Seek the Lord while He can be found, call upon Him while He is near ..."
Can a man be forgiven of all his sins on his death bed? Yes. I believe so. I also believe that we should heed the warning though, to seek the Lord "while He can be found".
Don't risk hardening your heart further. That would be my earnest advice to any person considering this matter.
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From my reading of your posts, you have not denied that God's plan of salvation makes it possible for someone like Hitler to be saved, while others who have led far less evil lives can be damned.
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There are only two ways that a human being can approach God.
He can approach God as one who has never sinned. Or he can approach God cleansed of his sins in the blood of Jesus.
My friend, my argumentative friend, or maybe not my friend too much, regardless, YOU choose which way you wish to approach God.
Degree of guilt here will not have an effect. You have to ... now listen .... You HAVE to understand that PERFECT is PERFECT. Holy is holy. Pure is pure. Righteous is righteous.
He's PERFECT Swiss Gambit. The God behind this universe is eternally Perfection.
I don't say that there is no revelation of degrees of sinning in the Bible. But some of us need to contemplate this matter of the complete holiness of God.
God is love. We like to know that His love is very very very strong. His love endures forever. He has really really strong LOVE. Thank God for that love.
The other side of this is the God is holy. He is a perfection that sets His being apart from everything else in existence. The good news is that Jesus Christ has met the requirement of that perfect justice and righteousness on His cross. There is no way we can fully appreciate what the death of Jesus has accomplished to meet the demand of God. The effectiveness of that substituionary death is known only to God. For us it is like a blank check upon which an infinite amount of money can be filled in.
That worth is for God to see. It meets His requirement. It can cover me and Hitler. It can cover the sins of the whole world throughout all time. That part of his understanding I do not dispute. I encourage it.
But that is only a part of the whole scheme of God's plan.
Originally posted by jaywillMeh, our perspectives are just too different for any useful discussion.
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You keep bringing up the chess analogy.
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I brought up the chess analogy as a example of a flimsy reason to not like chess. Fabian's reasoning I think is likewise a flimsy one for not wanting to be a Christian, in like manner.
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But courage it.
But that is only a part of the whole scheme of God's plan.[/b]
As so often happens, you use words like "love", "justice", etc. in the bizarro sense. You claim these attributes for you God, but his actions are jarringly at odds with this claim.
There is never any 'deeper' explanation offered - just the usual 'oh, God has his reasons, and he isn't obligated to share them with us' excuse. I'd rather go back to my 'labyrinth' of reasoning rather than settle for weak 'answers' like this one.
Originally posted by SwissGambit==========================
Meh, our perspectives are just too different for any useful discussion.
As so often happens, you use words like "love", "justice", etc. in the bizarro sense. You claim these attributes for you God, but his actions are jarringly at odds with this claim.
There is never any 'deeper' explanation offered - just the usual 'oh, God has his reasons, and he ...[text shortened]... o my 'labyrinth' of reasoning rather than settle for weak 'answers' like this one.
As so often happens, you use words like "love", "justice", etc. in the bizarro sense. You claim these attributes for you God, but his actions are jarringly at odds with this claim.
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Without elaborating, i don't know what you mean by bizarro sense.
There are, I admit, things done by God which I do not understand. But I am very suspicious that my failure to understand some of the actions recorded by God reflect a mistakes by the divine.
I am more inclined to believe that my limited knowledge is in effect. I would be puzzled if everything done by God in the Bible I had no problem with. If I and God are in total agreement about everything, then why am I so sinful ?
So while I do admit there are some puzzling actions done by my God in the Bible, I think probably the misunderstanding is on my side.
Christ tells me that I should turn and become as a little child in trusting Him. So while I do have questions without answers in some things, I somehow did not let these stop me from availing myself of Christ Himself as Lord and Savior.
It seems to me a miracle that I believe. It must be His mercy.
I used words like love and justice.
The love of God is manifested in that He sent the Son. The justice of God is manifested in that He has not sloppily overlooked our sins but has judged them in Christ's death.
It often does not occur to people that there could be forgiveness which is not right.
Anyway, i definitely see both divine love and divine righteousness working together in the death and resurrection of Jesus.
God has not sloppily overlooked my sins in a sentimental way. He has judged them on Christ's cross when He carried up my sins in His body.
There is no forgiveness from God without sin being judged. I see his great love at work and His justice at work at the same time.