30 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywilli've done my share of moral and ethical violations, i've wronged people and i've done harm to animals and plants.
i am not without faults, but i am without sin.
Some of your "faults" are because of some of your sins.
my family doesn't recognize the authority of your biblegod either.
They don't have to. Just ask them all if you NEVER did anyone else dirt.
Better yet ask them how you would compare to Jesus wheth ...[text shortened]... defended slavery in the bible. [/quote]
That is not what you said. Read what you said again.
but i've never sinned.
[quote]
lying is not a sin, it's an ethical violation. but there was no lie in my statement.
You said I defended slavery. Then you said I defended slavery in the bible.
At best the first is a gross exageration to the point of a slander. I think I will stick with "lie".
The second adjusted accusation is a subtle one. I will not have the same debate over again with you. [/quote]
the subtle difference that makes no difference. facts are you've defended slavery and you've defended genocide. the context in which you have defended these are already known.
In short divorce was something God hated. He says so. Yet God did make some provisions for divorce to improve its outcome.
The SAME may be said for some forms of indeptedness leading to servitude, a wide spread practice in the ancient world.
And I did show you also comparisons in the way runaway slaves fared under the law of Moses as compared to the far worse ways they compared to other ancient Near East societies.
there you go again. we already know you defend slavery, no need for further apology.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That includes you too.
it's impossible to fall short of a fictional character.
Now you seem to speak of God but not the one of the Bible.
Who is that God?
What has that God spoken if anything?
What has that God done in history if anything?
Where did you leartn about this non- bible God?
Are you sure you didn't just take the Bible God and attempt to strip away all that you don't like ?
i don't know who that god is.
i don't know if thon has spoken anything.
i don't know what thon has done in history, if anything.
there are many non-bible gods; humans have thought of many gods, it must go with reason that there are also gods that they have not thought of.
when i say "biblegod," i'm talking specifically about the god humans created in the collected literary works called the "holy" bible, so that it is clear that i'm not taking about allah or zeus or odin or osiris, or any one of the thousands of other gods.
Is the God you believe in have nothing to do with what you heard from the Bible ?
i have no belief in gods. all use of the term made by me, in whatever form is purely speculative and for literary discussion.
30 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
1. Why would you do your best to save lives when you have no influence on the matter? It is God that decides whether to save lives or not.
2. If someone murders someone else, why does he get blamed when it was God that decided that person should die?
1. Why would you do your best to save lives when you have no influence on the matter? It is God that decides whether to save lives or not.
Sometimes I do as a citizen have enfluence in the matter.
Luke the author of the Gospel under his name and the book of Acts was a medical doctor.
If God intended that men never interfere in the life saving of other humans I don't know why He would have intrusted a medical doctor of the ancient world with so much bulk material in the New Testament.
2. If someone murders someone else, why does he get blamed when it was God that decided that person should die?
You are saying that all deaths are to be blamed on God murdering.
I don't see life that way.
The cosmic " buck "of morality has to stop somewhere. If there is no umpire or super duper God 2.0 or God 3.0 or God 4.0 to correct what the lesser God did then the moral buck of the universe must stop with God period.
I don't think it stops with you or me.
So, God in His sovereignty allows or causes or permits or kills or whatever, - terminates or otherwise destines that it is time for a person to go, I trust, is a decision upon which His creatures cannot improve.
We have a case in the Bible of one man, Hezekiah, who was very very good. When it was time for him to die he tearfully requests an extention. God grants him 15 more years.
Then he blows his good reputation. God knew that he could not take any more temptation. He probably just should have gone when his time came or drawn much closer to God.
And another thing. God knows when YOUR time will come to go. And you probably haven't thanked God for the time He has alloted you so far.
Tomorrow you may wake up with not the slightest thought "God, at least I want to thank you for allowing me one more day."
Life may be deep. Life may be hard to understand. It is not SO hard to understand that I cannot turn around after one year and say "Thank you Lord God for that last year. I know many people didn't see that year. But I did. I just want to thank You God."
30 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillA really long post, without any answers. Would you care to actually answer the questions? Hint: its really just one question, "Does God decide when people die, or can there be other causes?"1. Why would you do your best to save lives when you have no influence on the matter? It is God that decides whether to save lives or not.
Sometimes I do as a citizen have enfluence in the matter.
[b]Luke the author of the Gospel under his name and the book of Acts was a medical doctor.
If God intended that men never i ...[text shortened]... know many people didn't see that year. But I did. I just want to thank You God." [/b][/b]
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30 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75if god exists then he must have invented this stuff. he created everything!!!!!! even if he gives humanity free will, he still made humanity so they can only operate within the perameters that were set. he created our body and minds, we cannot fly even if we want to because our body will not let us. also if god already knows everything then he knows that when he creates our minds that some of us will go onto do some crazy evil stuff. so why did he do it????? why design a mind that can think of raping children??? freewill!!! then why doesnt my mind have the freewill to do anything? why is my mind limited to the boundaries in which it was set?
"id ask him "rape,murder,pedophilia,cancer,aids,meningitis,war,poverty,ann coulter!!!.....you have a sick mind big fella, how did you even think this stuff up?"
This was posted on the "Ask God?" forum. Any comments on this? Does God cause these things to happen?
when a brutal crime is done upon an innocent then you could say the peodophile was using his freewill of his mind. so what happens to the freewill of the childs mind not to be scarred for the rest of their life, why cant their freewill make the thoughts and memories vanish. why would the promise of a nice after life, eternity or knowing god loves you be worth more than being a victim of gang rape. should the parents of murdered children pop into church the next day and thank god for all the love he's saving for them???????????????
30 Jan 12
2 edits
I wrote and you apparently ignored.
So, God in His sovereignty allows or causes or permits or kills or whatever, - terminates or otherwise destines that it is time for a person to go, I trust, is a decision upon which His creatures cannot improve.
He's involved. I don't know if "decides" is always the best answer. Maybe, maybe not. So I used a number of different words.
"allows" - "causes" - "permits" - "kills" - "terminates" - "otherwise destines" that the time has come through His divine sovereignty.
That is the best answer I can give you. Now I will ask you a question:
How are you and I diminished as human beings if we do not know for certainty everything ?
30 Jan 12
Originally posted by stellspalfie
if god exists then he must have invented this stuff. he created everything!!!!!! even if he gives humanity free will, he still made humanity so they can only operate within the perameters that were set. he created our body and minds, we cannot fly even if we want to because our body will not let us. also if god already knows everything then he knows th ...[text shortened]... pop into church the next day and thank god for all the love he's saving for them???????????????
if god exists then he must have invented this stuff. he created everything!!!!!! even if he gives humanity free will, he still made humanity so they can only operate within the perameters that were set. he created our body and minds, we cannot fly even if we want to because our body will not let us. also if god already knows everything then he knows that when he creates our minds that some of us will go onto do some crazy evil stuff. so why did he do it????? why design a mind that can think of raping children??? freewill!!! then why doesnt my mind have the freewill to do anything? why is my mind limited to the boundaries in which it was set?
when a brutal crime is done upon an innocent then you could say the peodophile was using his freewill of his mind. so what happens to the freewill of the childs mind not to be scarred for the rest of their life, why cant their freewill make the thoughts and memories vanish. why would the promise of a nice after life, eternity or knowing god loves you be worth more than being a victim of gang rape. should the parents of murdered children pop into church the next day and thank god for all the love he's saving for them???????????????
And all of this eloquently and elaborately expressed rational is the reason you can go merrily along and do whatever you wish everyday and be left alone by any God.
Oh, and report into the Spirituality Forum now and then to check that no one has any better way to live.
30 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillI can't make head or tail of that. Maybe you could answer it in multiple choice form:
I wrote and you apparently ignored.
So, God in His sovereignty allows or causes or permits or kills or whatever, - terminates or otherwise destines that it is time for a person to go, I trust, is a decision upon which His creatures cannot improve.
He's involved. I don't know if "decides" is always the best answer. Maybe, maybe not ...[text shortened]... - "otherwise destines" that the time has come through His divine sovereignty.
a: God always causes death.
b: God sometimes causes death and sometimes there are other causes.
c: God never causes death.
d: you don't know.
I suspect d. is the case but you don't want to admit it because your earlier post implied a.
Now I will ask you a question:
How are you and I diminished as human beings if we do not know for certainty everything ?
We are not. We are however diminished if we can't admit it, because then we end up looking stupid. Everyone else can see that we don't have the answer but we keep on churning out garbage thinking we are hiding the fact.
The worst is when a theist makes up on the spur of the moment an answer to any question about God because he thinks admitting ignorance on the subject would be equivalent to admitting he knows his faith is a lie.
It is interesting that this behaviour amongst atheists is very rare.
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30 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillThere is actually a much more interesting argument (discussion) to be had about what
Funny. Someone once said whatever you hate you become like.
Coming Atheist Temple for Non-believers to worship:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/25/atheists-temple_n_1231848.html
Alain de Botton is doing and promoting than a parting quip.
However I think he's an idiot, an opinion I am far from alone in sharing.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/01/18/atheism-2-0-is-buggy/
I have no problem with the idea of having atheist secular meeting places that perform the
secular functions of churches (ie the social meeting place and community focal point ect)
but that idea is far from new and Alain has bought into the theists straw man fallacy about
what the 'gnu' atheists are about.
PZ Myers, James Randi, Rebecca Watson, and even Dawkins are far better speakers 'for' atheism
then de Botton is.
We are inherently social animals and there should be secular replacements for the valuable social
aspects of churches without the idiotic faith and dogma that goes with it.
But what he is advocating is indoctrination into atheism rather than opening peoples minds and
promoting skepticism and rationality.
You can't indoctrinate people into thinking critically and questioning things.
The fact that indoctrination is effective is not a good reason to use it.
Also, even Alain de Botton isn't suggesting that atheist 'worship' anything.
That's simply the inaccurate newspaper headline, with no bearing in reality.
30 Jan 12
3 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
I can't make head or tail of that. Maybe you could answer it in multiple choice form:
a: God always causes death.
b: God sometimes causes death and sometimes there are other causes.
c: God never causes death.
d: you don't know.
I suspect d. is the case but you don't want to admit it because your earlier post implied a.
[b]Now I will ask you a qu s his faith is a lie.
It is interesting that this behaviour amongst atheists is very rare.
I suspect d. is the case but you don't want to admit it because your earlier post implied a.[/b]
If you can't make heads or tails of my answer then why do you turn around and say a. or d.must be my answer ?
The answer I wrote is all I feel to give you. Take it. Reject it. Exploit it. Prove it wrong or whatever you want to do.
But don't say you can't make heads or tails of it and then hypocritically tell me what it must be.
30 Jan 12
6 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
I can't make head or tail of that. Maybe you could answer it in multiple choice form:
a: God always causes death.
b: God sometimes causes death and sometimes there are other causes.
c: God never causes death.
d: you don't know.
I suspect d. is the case but you don't want to admit it because your earlier post implied a.
[b]Now I will ask you a qu s his faith is a lie.
It is interesting that this behaviour amongst atheists is very rare.
[/b]
me:
Now I will ask you a question:
How are you and I diminished as human beings if we do not know for certainty everything ?
We are not. We are however diminished if we can't admit it, because then we end up looking stupid.
Since I have plenty of times on this Forum said that there was something I didn't know for sure, there's no harm.
And as for "looking stupid" ? That sometimes goes automatically with being a theist. No problem to me there either.
Everyone else can see that we don't have the answer but we keep on churning out garbage thinking we are hiding the fact.
Looking stupid and having your attempts to give the best answer you have, described by some atheist as "garbage" are about the same. It is no better or no worse than flattery at being called very smart.
Both are vanity, your compliments or your insults.
What the truth is matters. That's all that really matters to me.
The worst is when a theist makes up on the spur of the moment an answer to any question about God because he thinks admitting ignorance on the subject would be equivalent to admitting he knows his faith is a lie.
It is interesting that this behaviour amongst atheists is very rare.
Let me know when it is suppose to hit me that God and Christ are a lie.
Let me put it this way. In the years that I have been participating on this Forum I have yet to see twhitehead offer anything as a world view as valuable as that which Jesus Christ and the Bible teaches.
I mean its nice to see Curious George come up with so many good questions. But what do you have that is as valuable as Christ ?
I would say nothing. Yet you are decorous and gentlemanly like. You have all the order and decorum of a nicely arranged graveyard. A very neat and ordely spiritual death.
And if I knew all the answers then I would not need faith which I cheerfully admit that I have. Trust in Christ the Son of God.
30 Jan 12
2 edits
The death of every man and women and child is either under God's perfect will or His permissive will. He is involved in it.
And He is also involved in everyone's resurrection from the dead someday.
He knows when the time comes. We don't know. I don't think He holds us the living as doing wrong, on many occasions when we fight and even succeed in keeping someone from death.
I suppose twhitehead is attempting to portray God as the murderer of everyone. Maybe that's his idea.
The list of verbs I gave concerning this probably all have their substantiations in the Scripture in various places.
"allows" - "causes" - "permits" - "kills" - "terminates" - "otherwise destines" that the time has come through His divine sovereignty.
30 Jan 12
1 edit
I suspect d. is the case but you don't want to admit it because your earlier post implied a.
I have no problem admiting that human words have their limitations in answering the question.
Just as human words have their limitations in answering whether the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three "Persons".
Yes, God is intimately involved in the birth and death of each one of us.
The precise human wording of that involvement may be prone to lead to misunderstanding if pressed too far.
I may borrow the word "decides". God "decides" when each of us is born or dies. But I would not thus exploit the word.
An antitheist probably would.
30 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritWell yes we are all inherently sinful but that is not God's fault. The condition we are in is because of Adam and Eve, not from God.
regret/repent/to be sorry
these are confessions of a mistake that need to be corrected.
when the religious repent, it is because they made a mistake, they "sinned" and need to seek out forgiveness.
contextually, biblegod identified his mistake, was sorry for it and decided the only way to correct his mistake was to destroy what he had created and ...[text shortened]... o. you should've thought of that before destroying the world in a mad-rage there, big guy.