30 Jan 12
If God were behind eveil then why this comment from his son Jesus?
This was stated not long before his death, where he explained that the men who were planning to kill him were not acting entirely of their own volition. An unseen force guided them. Jesus told them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth.” (John 8:44)
The Devil, whom Jesus called “the ruler of this world,” clearly has a prominent role in fomenting evil.
John 16:11
New Living Translation (NLT)
11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.
1 John 5:19
New Living Translation (NLT)
19 We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.
31 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75the devil is biblegod's servant. when you have verses claiming the biblegod is the source of evil, there is no point in looking elsewhere.
If God were behind eveil then why this comment from his son Jesus?
This was stated not long before his death, where he explained that the men who were planning to kill him were not acting entirely of their own volition. An unseen force guided them. Jesus told them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That ...[text shortened]... w that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.
Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
it really all depends on what you mean by "evil"
the above verses deal with calamity. as for biblegod being a source of moral evil, a claim has not been made for such, though it can be shown that he has committed moral evil, it cannot be shown that he is the source of moral evil. presumably moral evil comes with the the territory of free will. so it can be argued that he is the first source of moral evil, but not the only source.
31 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillIf you do not understand why such actions as those at issue executed by the God of the bible (under hyper-literal interpretation) are morally reprehensible, then I would say you are simply morally impaired. The types of moral considerations at issue here (like wholesale infliction of pain and suffering on any number and type of sentient creatures who obviously qualify as moral patients) are pretty basic stuff.Yes, you trust that His actions are morally excellent even when they appear obviously morally reprehensible. That's not "moral exemplarity" on that part of God. That is just your intellect taking a holiday.
No it isn't. I don't find it "morally reprehensible" that the Creator and Ultimate Governor of human life Who alone GAVE li ...[text shortened]... The rest of your comments I will have to examine latter.[/b]
31 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillPerhaps you could point out to me specifically where God asks me to incoporate some morally reprehensible action to perform.
[quote] here is how bizarro moral exemplarity works: X, the bizarro moral exemplar, undertakes actions that wreak havoc, suffering and death in ways that frustrate even the most basic moral intuitions of X's followers. Regardless of this, X's followers resolve to keep calling such actions "good" anyway, despite the fact that they are actually reprehensible a ...[text shortened]... ded in the Sermon on the Mount or in any epistle of the New Testament that I am aware of.
Perhaps you could re-read my ealier post because you obviously missed the point.
Back to the point, moral exemplars are supposed to serve as examples in their morally relevant actions and underlying motivations and character features, etc. So, again, I would like to see you actually implement, into your own service, the "disciplinary" methods of your God.
Whatever your God is, He is certainly no moral exemplar. At best He is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.
01 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloI still ask for an example. It should be easy for you to show me a few.
[b]Perhaps you could point out to me specifically where God asks me to incoporate some morally reprehensible action to perform.
Perhaps you could re-read my ealier post because you obviously missed the point.
Back to the point, moral exemplars are supposed to serve as examples in their morally relevant actions and underlying motivations and cha He is certainly no moral exemplar. At best He is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.[/b]
As a new covenant Christian where is the "Do as I Say Do and not as I Do" with Christ my Godman Lord & Savior ?
Any "reprehensible" commands in the whole New Testament for Christians to fulfill ?
01 Feb 12
3 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambit
That's convenient. All this time we've been talking about examples from the Old Testament and you just throw it out with one sentence.
That's convenient. All this time we've been talking about examples from the Old Testament and you just throw it out with one sentence.
What else is the purpose of the skeptic to complain except to arrive at - "Your God is a Moral Monster. So you're evil to obey your God." ?
Isn't that where this is going ??
Sure it is.
Look. In the Old Testament there were some one time or non-repeatable commands of specific historical circumstances, commanded by God that most of us find hard to take. The conquest of Canaan is the case in point.
This was a specific instance in history - non-normative and really non-repeatable. Ie. Jericho, Amalakites, Midianites. Skeptics want to cash in on these instances for all they're worth to make a general condemnation of all the Bible and of all the Christian faith.
01 Feb 12
Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Perhaps you could point out to me specifically where God asks me to incoporate some morally reprehensible action to perform.
Perhaps you could re-read my ealier post because you obviously missed the point.
Back to the point, moral exemplars are supposed to serve as examples in their morally relevant actions and underlying motivations and cha ...[text shortened]... He is certainly no moral exemplar. At best He is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.[/b]
Back to the point, moral exemplars are supposed to serve as examples in their morally relevant actions and underlying motivations and character features, etc. So, again, I would like to see you actually implement, into your own service, the "disciplinary" methods of your God.
The exemplars are indeed useful examples.
That is those things which I, as a follower of God, am commanded to do.
For example, the destruction of the city of Jericho, is a useful example to the New Testament Christian on being absolute to deal with the "enemy within".
Those instances in the Old Testament where God said they were to slay without pity become very useful in the new covennt want. For our "good land" is the all-inclusive Christ that we seek to enter into and live in.
01 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillLook, I'm not here to convert anyone, or take someone's faith away.That's convenient. All this time we've been talking about examples from the Old Testament and you just throw it out with one sentence.
What else is the purpose of the skeptic to complain except to arrive at - "Your God is a Moral Monster. So you're evil to obey your God." ?
Isn't that where this is going ??
Sure it is.
Loo ...[text shortened]... ake a general condemnation of [b]all the Bible and of all the Christian faith.[/b]
I can understand if a believer were to follow God's commands out of fear. The threats of punishment and hell are indeed dire.
But few of you stop there. You don't merely obey God - you worship him. You don't merely say that God is knowledgeable and powerful - you claim he is morally perfect.
Forget about discrediting a whole book and a whole faith - I'm just trying to get my head around your attitude toward God. I wouldn't call you evil for following him - I just think it's bizarre that you worship him and call him moral when you believe that all those stories of God causing suffering and death are literally true.
01 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillSo if they were more than one time, repeatable commands, would that make God a moral monster? What about the fact that there were more than one of these onetime non-repeatable commands? (you admit as such, but try to downplay them, when in reality the whole old testament is filled with them).
Look. In the Old Testament there were some one time or non-repeatable commands of specific historical circumstances, commanded by God that most of us find hard to take. The conquest of Canaan is the case in point.
This was a specific instance in history - non-normative and really non-repeatable. Ie. [b]Jericho, Amalakites, Midianites. Skeptics wa ...[text shortened]... h to make a general condemnation of all the Bible and of all the Christian faith.[/b]
Why is it that you go around claiming that Jesus was without sin - he never sinned, not even once - yet when it comes to God, one or two sins is OK?
The simple fact is, that if you were not duty bound to believe God was morally good, it would not be the conclusion you would draw from reading the Bible.
01 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywilloh lordy, what a hoot. you say "non-normative, non-repeatable" then go on to list several (out of a pool of many existing) cases.... jericho, amalakites, midianites...That's convenient. All this time we've been talking about examples from the Old Testament and you just throw it out with one sentence.
What else is the purpose of the skeptic to complain except to arrive at - "Your God is a Moral Monster. So you're evil to obey your God." ?
Isn't that where this is going ??
Sure it is.
Loo ...[text shortened]... ake a general condemnation of [b]all the Bible and of all the Christian faith.[/b]
if it's non-normative and non-repeatable, it would've happened only once. but it doesn't end at what has already occurred. biblegod promises many more murders. christians are waiting and many are even praying for those times to hurry up and arrive.
01 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywill"Your God is a Moral Monster. So you're evil to obey your God."That's convenient. All this time we've been talking about examples from the Old Testament and you just throw it out with one sentence.
What else is the purpose of the skeptic to complain except to arrive at - "Your God is a Moral Monster. So you're evil to obey your God." ?
Isn't that where this is going ??
Sure it is.
Loo ...[text shortened]... ake a general condemnation of [b]all the Bible and of all the Christian faith.[/b]
You've really lost your handle on this discussion. Our discussion was basically about your view regarding predication of moral terms, which I find to be confused and inconsistent. Relatedly, it was about whether or not one can reasonably predicate terms like 'evil' or 'morally reprehensible' to the God described in the OT (again, under sufficiently literal interpretation) or to some of His morally relevant acts at issue therein, etc; relatedly, whether or not one can reasonably call such a God a moral exemplar. Again, the answers are really easy: yes, those terms can be so predicated; and no, such a God cannot, and obviously does not, function as a moral exemplar.
Originally posted by jaywillBy the way, jaywill, does it bother you that your defense of OT God closely resembles that of the beaten wife's defense of the wife beater (compare to "It was my fault, I had it comin', he warned me and I didn't listen, it was just a one-off thing and won't happen again", etc, etc)?That's convenient. All this time we've been talking about examples from the Old Testament and you just throw it out with one sentence.
What else is the purpose of the skeptic to complain except to arrive at - "Your God is a Moral Monster. So you're evil to obey your God." ?
Isn't that where this is going ??
Sure it is.
Loo ake a general condemnation of [b]all the Bible and of all the Christian faith.[/b]
01 Feb 12
4 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Look, I'm not here to convert anyone, or take someone's faith away.
I can understand if a believer were to follow God's commands out of fear. The threats of punishment and hell are indeed dire.
But few of you stop there. You don't merely obey God - you worship him. You don't merely say that God is knowledgeable and powerful - you claim he is ou believe that all those stories of God causing suffering and death are literally true.
Look, I'm not here to convert anyone, or take someone's faith away.
I see. That is comendable. Me, though, I am here "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name. "
I am also here to explain to some why I have this hope in me. I know everyone will not believe the Gospel.
But, go on, what were you saying? I've been away from this discussion and may well have lost some continuity.
I can understand if a believer were to follow God's commands out of fear. The threats of punishment and hell are indeed dire.
This could become a caricature of great exaggeration. To follow the Lord Jesus is many faceted. There is not only one aspect of it. There could be many angles to it.
On one hand I am captured by His beauty. He liberates from all sense of religious duty merely by his peerless worth. There is simply no one so precious. Can you see any fear in the heart of Mary as she recognized the resurrected Christ at the tomb:
" ... she turned backward and beheld Jesus standing there, yet she did not know it was Jesus. Jesus said to her,
Woman, why are you weeping? Who, are see seeking? She, supposing that He was the gardener, said to Him,
Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laod Him, and I will take Him away. Jesus said to her, Mary!
She turned and said in Hebrew, RABBONI! (which means Teacher)." Jesus said to her, Do not tuouch Me, for I have no yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God" (John 20:14b-17)
Don't you understand man ? Some of us love the Teacher. Mary had seven demons cast out of her. She also was forgiven much.
He who has been forgiven much also loves much. If you realized just what of God needs to be forgiven in your life, and being forgiven, and knowing that, you also might be constrained to love the Lord Jesus.
As a outsider; and passive and skeptical observer, YOU assume there is no other reason to follow the Teacher but fear.
I like the word "holistic" in this matter. There is not only one motive, one angle. There is an all incompassing reaction to God. I fear the waste of my human life and emptiness of not being in the will of God.
And, yes, aside from the excellent preciousnesss of the Son of God, His peerless worth and eternal value, I also know that He CAN and WILL present before Himself blameless, without spot or wrinkle.
The fear of the righteous God is clean and enlightens the eyes. But fear ends up being no fear because He is able to save us to the uttermost and " guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation. (Jude 25)
My "fear" has exhuberant comfort and rejoicing because I know that He is able to present me before Him holy and without blemish in love."
My confidence is in the power of His salvation and His Person. If I only had confidence in my own sinful God ignoring, God rebelling, God hating Adamic disposition, then I would have only the slavery of fear. But I have the freedom of truth.
He loved me and gave Himself for me. He loved me and gave Himself TO me.
But few of you stop there. You don't merely obey God - you worship him.
Christ is worthy of my worship. Just to breath His name, "Lord Jesus" and touch Him deep within uplifts my entire humanity.
The Christian is living in a realm and a sphere of life which is the true God and eternal life . And we should realize anything that usurps the place of this Wonderful Person in whom we move and live, can become an idol:
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we may know Him who is true; AND WE ARE IN HIM WHO IS TRUE, IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. This is the true God and eternal life.
Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:20,21)
ALL the idols are dropping off. That is anything which usurps the preeminence of the true God - a living realm in which to walk -"THIS IS the true God and eternal life."
We have been distracted by many idols. Many things I can enjoy and own. But they are not my God.
You don't merely say that God is knowledgeable and powerful - you claim he is morally perfect.
I believe that for a temporary amount of time, God allowed a powerful enemy and accuser to fulfill the roll of challenging God's throne and right to be God. That is Satan. He is the Advasary and the Accuser with his extraordinary skill, malice, experience, fueled by unquenching hatred of his Creator.
All the challenge to God's rightness and righteousness, God has allowed to be spearheaded by this opposition party. Satan has all the accusations.
I believe the Psalmist "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Lovingkindness and truth go before Your face." (Psalm 89:14)
The foundation of God's throne and authority are righteousness and justice.
True and righteous are His judgments.
I don't know how many thousands or millions of years God has allowed this opposition party to prove God as unrighteous. But it is all centered in the activity of Satan. When he has done his job to help God demonstrate His absolute righteous nature and justice, that little snake will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. We humans should not want to join the failed revolt, the failed rebellion.
Sure, here is an element of fear. But Christ has nullified it because of His redemption. Praise the Lord. He releases His children from fear and from death by becomming one of us too.
"Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might DESTROY him who has the might of death, that is , the devil.
AND might release those who because of the fear of death through all their life were held in slavery. " (Hebrews 2:14-15)
See? God incarnate as the man Jesus released us from fear.
Forget about discrediting a whole book and a whole faith - I'm just trying to get my head around your attitude toward God. I wouldn't call you evil for following him - I just think it's bizarre that you worship him and call him moral when you believe that all those stories of God causing suffering and death are literally true.
But can you explain why the Hebrew kings had a reputation in the land of Canaan of being MERCIFUL kings ?
"And his [Ben-hadad king of Syria] servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. We beg you, let us put sackcloth on our loins and ropes on our heads and go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)
All I ask is that you keep reading. Read the Bible from the "holistic" angle, considering all things together. This helped me - to get a well rounded, full picture.
Don't stop reading. Sure, there will be some difficult portions. What about the whole well rounded picture ?
01 Feb 12
6 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
So if they were more than one time, repeatable commands, would that make God a moral monster? What about the fact that there were more than one of these onetime non-repeatable commands? (you admit as such, but try to downplay them, when in reality the whole old testament is filled with them).
Why is it that you go around claiming that Jesus was without ...[text shortened]... ieve God was morally good, it would not be the conclusion you would draw from reading the Bible.
So if they were more than one time, repeatable commands, would that make God a moral monster? What about the fact that there were more than one of these onetime non-repeatable commands? (you admit as such, but try to downplay them, when in reality the whole old testament is filled with them).
I look at each on a case by case basis. The differences are also indeed interesting.
It is the SAME God who rebukes His prophet Jonah for dragging his feet to warn some enemies of Israel that they are about to suffer divine judgment.
One entire book of the Old Testament is dedicated to this history. God wants to warn a society that He is about to judge them. His prophet says "YEA! Go get em! Damn enemies". The prophet is so reluctant to the task that he runs the other way.
You may know the story. Ninevah gets the warning and beautifully repents. Divine judgment is averted, mercy prevails. God has to scold his own prejudiced and self serving prophet.
Now this is the SAME God who gave instructions on the Amalakites and the Midianites. I simply have to consider this in the whole assertation of the ways of God.
One other thing is certain. If God had not gone through the details of His hatred for sin and sinning in the Old Testament, it would mean less to me that all the sins of the world as to eternal judgment, were condemned and judged on the world's behalf in the Son of God.
The Gospel of Luke following the book of Genesis would have made little sense.
That sin is abominable, hated by God, a damage to man, an insult to God, a violation of the order and law of God in creation, a revolt, a decline, a withdrawal from truth, dirty, filthy, defiling, worthy of death - had to be established in "the ministry of condemnation".
The world of Noah, Sodom, Gamorrah, Egypt, Amalek, Jericho, the Midianites, and yes even Israel herself provided examples of God's hatred for sin.
Upon this black backround then we see the Son of God come to bear in Himself, for love, for salvation, the sin of the whole world for all human history, that we may be justified and reconciled to God.
We love Him all the more because we see what it meant for the world's iniquity to be judged on our behalf in His redemptive death.
Why is it that you go around claiming that Jesus was without sin - he never sinned, not even once - yet when it comes to God, one or two sins is OK?
The simple fact is, that if you were not duty bound to believe God was morally good, it would not be the conclusion you would draw from reading the Bible.
His enemies could find no fault in Him. And Pilate wanted to wash his hands of the execution.
As for Christ's being spotless and without sin ? If He was not then we'll never make it.
His resurrection was the proof and the stamp of approval of God that this death was not for Himself but for us the sinners. He was raised as a proof that God accepted His redemptive death on our behalf. His resurrection is the stamp of Divine Approval that He can be our Substituted and Advocate.
Before God we need a good lawyer. My Advocate is and will be Jesus Christ the Righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for my sins and for the sins of the whole world.