did God give us free will?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
According to Genesis, god did not give us the free will. When eating the forbidden fruit, they excercized their free will and got punished. God didn't like them for excercizing their free will. They got punished.

You are subtracting from the account and then assaying blame where it doesn't belong. How long were the man and the woman in the Garden, freely eating only the fruit from the approved trees, freely living within the parameters set out for them by God?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You're guessing. You are extrapolating from the legend. You know nothing.
There is nothing in the legend saying that Adam saw any animal die. If I'm wrong, then state your source for that. Chapter and verse will do.

No need to because one would know animals would have died then just as they do now. Am I wrong or did animals not die then?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“…You just seemed so confident in your dismissal….”

I didn’t dismiss alternative definitions of “free will”. On the contrary, I recognise the fact that there is no fundamentally and objectively “correct” definition and meaning to any word.
I only “dismiss” (if that is the most appropriate word here; not sure if it is) what I guess, rightly or wrongly, would be the average layperson implicitly means by “free will”; that is all.

I only “dismiss” (if that is the most appropriate word here; not sure if it is) what I guess, rightly or wrongly, would be the average layperson implicitly means by “free will”; that is all.

I'm not sure that's true. I think the average may at first seem to subscribe to a libertarian view of free will but when you tease out their thoughts further find that they actually have more of a compatibilist view. They might say "Free will means I can choose to stand up or not to stand up" but then when you ask whether their choice has absolutely no causal antecedents, I think they would balk. This was at least how it played out when these questions were first posed to me. Free will, as I would now express it, means that A and not-A are in my power, that there is no coercive force obstructing my choice, but also allows that I will definitely choose A because this suits, say, my character (i.e. has causal antecedents.)

Originally posted by galveston75
Well hang on a little here and go back to the Bible's explination of that process. The tree was placed in the garden as a symbol of God’s right to determine or set standards for man as to what is “good” (approved by God) and what is “bad” (condemned by God) for all generations to come. It thus constituted a test of man’s respect for his Creator’s positi people seem to miss is there was another tree in that garden. What do we know about that one?

But it wasn't the "tree of more knowledge of good and evil" or the "tree of advanced knowledge good and evil" it was simply the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", moreover from the style of the narrative given in the Bible not limited to where it talks about the garden of Eden it is reasonable to assume complete innocence, and with it, complete ignorance as to that which constitutes good, and and conversely, that which constitutes bad! From this I cannot see how Adam or Eve could reasonably conclude that failing to respect God's wishes on the matter of eating from the tree was an intrinsically bad thing; nevermind being able to understand why!

As for your other questions a man needs to know or experience bad such that in the spirit of discussions on freewill, he is, at the very least, able to competently and reliably filter from his set of desirable actions any of the things which are not good should he so choose (freely)...this includes disobeying God. I can only give subjective accounts of the benefits of knowing right from wrong (since I already possess this knowledge and cannot remember anything about the time when I didn't, also I have no experience of a place where such knowledge would be redundant) and I anticipate counters of the form that living innocent is better (by decree). For this reason I'll save myself the effort of constructing a long-winded argument on this matter.

Also I am unable to talk about the conversations God supposedly had with Adam & Eve in the garden

Originally posted by Agerg
But it wasn't the "tree of more knowledge of good and evil" or the "tree of advanced knowledge good and evil" it was simply the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", moreover from the style of the narrative given in the Bible not limited to where it talks about the garden of Eden it is reasonable to assume complete innocence, and with it, complete ignorance as ...[text shortened]... nable to talk about the conversations God supposedly had with Adam & Eve in the garden

"Also I am unable to talk about the conversations God supposedly had with Adam & Eve in the garden"

Or much of anything else from what I can tell. 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
But it wasn't the "tree of more knowledge of good and evil" or the "tree of advanced knowledge good and evil" it was simply the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", moreover from the style of the narrative given in the Bible not limited to where it talks about the garden of Eden it is reasonable to assume complete innocence, and with it, complete ignorance as ...[text shortened]... unable to talk about the conversations God supposedly had with Adam & Eve in the garden

In the world we're in now, yes some knowledge of what is bad is and the consequences can be to our advantage. But that does not justify one going out to actually do what we view as bad. Does one need to commit murder in order to understand all the implacations and the wrongness of actually doing it?
You need to realise that Adam and Eve were in a completely different world then we are in now. IF they had obeyed God and inculcated that respect and love for God in all their children, the bad we all know now would have never existed.
Possibly if Satan had failed at his attempt to cause our first parents to sin, God "may have" put an end to Satan at that point and none of the wickedness we now know would be here now.

Originally posted by josephw
"Also I am unable to talk about the conversations God supposedly had with Adam & Eve in the garden"

[b]Or much of anything else from what I can tell. 😕[/b]

This is the finest rebuttal I have seen from you in all the time I've been posting here josephw...My warmest congratulations to you for this accomplishment!!! :]

Originally posted by Agerg
This is the finest rebuttal I have heard from you in all the time I've been posting here Josephw...My warmest congratulations for raising your bar!!! :]

Why thank you Agerg! It's fun to once in a while. I should do it more often.

Originally posted by galveston75
In the world we're in now, yes some knowledge of what is bad is and the consequences can be to our advantage. But that does not justify one going out to actually do what we view as bad. Does one need to commit murder in order to understand all the implacations and the wrongness of actually doing it?
You need to realise that Adam and Eve were in a compl " put an end to Satan at that point and none of the wickedness we now know would be here now.

I believe it is the case that there exist some people in this world who lack the capacity to understand why killing is a bad thing to do (there certainly exist people who lack empathy for other humans)...it is this sort of person I assert that would give less consideration to the question of whether they should or should not murder someone (and failure to do so probably has more to do with opportunity or lack of it). The point I'm making here is that an understanding of why an act is wrong is an influencing factor as to whether one should do it or not, experience of actually committing the act less so.

Above all else Galveston, the point I am contesting is that without knowledge of good and evil I fail to see how Adam & Eve must always decide against doing something not good like disobeying God. Moreover I fail to see that the supposed punishment for their actions was appropriate given their lack of knowledge prior to 'committing the act'. That all could of been glorious had they 'randomly' or 'accidentally' failed to disobey him every time the thought occurred to them is a moot point in this regard.

Originally posted by Agerg
I believe it is the case that there exist some people in this world who lack the capacity to understand why killing is a bad thing to do (there certainly exist people who lack empathy for other humans)...it is this sort of person I assert that would give less consideration to the question of whether they should or should not murder someone (and failure to do s ...[text shortened]... ed to disobey him every time the thought occurred to them is a moot point in this regard.

So I ask if you have an answer. Why did God exact such a heavy punishment on them?

Originally posted by galveston75
No need to because one would know animals would have died then just as they do now. Am I wrong or did animals not die then?

What does the bible say? The bible doesn't say anything about it. You don't know, you are guessing.

I haven't seen snakes that talks either... Have you? No, it's just a fable.

And you are right in guessing. Because the garden of eden is just a legend, a saga, a fable, a story. Nothing more. It is not the truth more than

Originally posted by galveston75
So why would God not have the right to ask humans to do things in a right and good way? He created us and gave us the earth to live on and to take care of. So to simply obey him would never be too much to ask. And he only asked Adam & Eve not to do one thing. Leave that tree alone.
It's no different then a parent of a child asking or telling them not t ...[text shortened]... not a logical thing and also a loving thing to expect from God who we all owe our life's to?

“So why would God not have the right to ask humans to do things in a right and good way?...”

That is not what I said. Read my post again.

Originally posted by galveston75
So I ask if you have an answer. Why did God exact such a heavy punishment on them?

No answers you would like to hear...anyway, I don't believe your god exists.

Originally posted by Agerg
No answers you would like to hear...anyway, I don't believe your god exists.

How can you say he does not exist when he's a spirit? Can you prove he doesn't?

Originally posted by galveston75
How can you say he does not exist when he's a spirit? Can you prove he doesn't?

My failure to believe in your god does not mean I have to prove he doesn't exist. I don't see how you made that particular step.

To see the silliness in demanding a proof, suppose I say that I hit upon a marvellous proof he doesn't exist and hid it somewhere no one will find it...can you prove I didn't? 😕