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Something kind of interesting -- there is a position that is sort of beyond either of these.
I have heard that people can actually be considered to be "dead" and in a state of total non-existence until the Judgment day. And, at that point, their soul is turned into a spirit body.
I showed you though that the prophet Samuel was not non-existent in his state of death. He objected to being disturbed by being brought up again (First Samuel 28:15).
And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? (v.15a)
If the existing soul of Samuel is non-existent while physically dead, there is no real continuation of him. The recreation of his soul would really be the creation of another person. If God creates another person to be brought up from the dead to be judged might they not protest that they were NOT that previous person who died? After all, they are not that person's continuation but the creation of an entirely new person.
When Philippians 2:9-11 speaks of universal worship of Jesus Christ it strongly implies those in death under the earth are not excluded from having to confess that Jesus is Lord. So they must exist.
Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed upon Him the name which is above every name.
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.
And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
The same is true of the universal worship seen in Revelation 5:13. All worshipers include those under the earth.
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever." (Rev. 5:12,13)
It appears that even in the realm of death and Hades there is no exception because of non-existence.
Praise the Lord.
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26 Jan 19
3 edits
This concept is highlighted in Matthew 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 KJV
That's an interesting take. Checking my understanding of what you mean -
Jesus is teaching that His disciples should not fear men who can only kill the body, leaving a man still to exist in soul. But valid fear should had concerning God because He can bring both body and soul to NON-EXISTENCE in Gehenna.
Ie. "Men can harm my body. But I need not be afraid because I still exist as a soul. But my greater fear should be that God can cause both soul and body to be brought to non-existence in Gehenna."
Am I comprehending your interpretation correctly?
27 Jan 19
@philokalia saidWhere did you “hear” that, in your sleep?
I have heard that people can actually be considered to be "dead" and in a state of total non-existence until the Judgment day. And, at that point, their soul is turned into a spirit body.
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What I did say is exactly what the Bible says, that being sent to the Lake of Fire is the "second death". People sent to the Lake of Fire as punishment for their unrepented sin are destroyed. Certainly not "kept alive and tortured eternally".
Being "kept alive" I have never advocated.
You have explained that both Gehenna and the lake of fire mean non-existence.
Can one who does not exist undergo "hurt" ?
If the un-existing are all in "the second death" then would they all be being hurt ?
I think this would be the case because the New Testament speaks of "the hurt of the second death"
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
If the second death is non-existence then everyone non-existing is being hurt by non-existence.
Maybe one could reason that only if one existed and lived and then was deprived of existence he was being hurt by it.
I don't think that works because as soon as they are non-existent there is nothing to be hurt. How can what does not exist be hurt?
Maybe some would reason that it is not non-existence which will hurt them but the expectation that they are not going to exist anymore which causes the hurt. Ie. They hurt up to the moment of non-existence knowing that they are thus judged.
But the verse says "by no means be hurt"
I don't think the second death is either being kept alive or not existing. But it is a punishment.
I think I showed that Antichrist and the false prophet are men and they go to be hurt in the second death. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10) with their leader the Devil.
Revelation 20:15 says whoever's name was not found written in the book of life goes to the same place. Whether the result is exactly the same we are not explicitly told. But it is the same place.
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life he was cast into the lake of fire. (v.15)
If it is a matter of the punishment will fit the crime and the crimes are different, the overall impression I am left with is that forgiveness of any and all crimes in eternal salvation should be sought.
Through being recorded in the book of life, the punishment place should be avoided through Christ the Redeemer regardless.
The book of life is also called "the book of life of the Lamb slain ..." (Rev. 13:8) .
I do not know all the ways in which a human may have his or her name recorded in the Lamb's book of life. And I do not know for sure that physical death is everyone's in world history, last opportunity. Maybe, but sometimes I think maybe not.
I don't know.
"Seek the Lord while He may be found. Call upon Him while He is near." (Isa. 55:6)
27 Jan 19
@sonship saidSo you're not getting what I'm saying.
@Suzianne
What I did say is exactly what the Bible says, that being sent to the Lake of Fire is the "second death". People sent to the Lake of Fire as punishment for their unrepented sin are destroyed. Certainly not "kept alive and tortured eternally".
Being "kept alive" I have never advocated.
You have explained that both Gehenna and the lake of fi ...[text shortened]... one's in world history, last opportunity. Maybe, but sometimes I think maybe not.
I don't know.
I'm actually okay with that.
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After this I am going to change the subject a little.
I would like to enumerate what kinds of attitudes we should not have overmuch in dealing with this subject. The particulars of whose right or wrong I am going to put aside. We prophesy in part and know in part.
But I want to say something about the kinds of attitudes which Bible readers have which I think are not helpful in dealing with the matter.
Then maybe I'll confess some problems I still have with my own understanding to this point. That is difficulties that I put to myself that I have not solved.
The Bible elludes 100% systemization.
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05 Feb 19
Divegeester, you still have an opportunity to show me from the Bible that death means non-existence to those who have died.
I see you in the thread Are All Warnings Threats? bring out again you old objections that God would not keep people alive after death to torture them.
While the emotional appeal is strong what I would like to see is your argument that God puts man beyond any further ability for God to deal with one because death makes him exist no more.
Make your case here that several cases in the Bible we see dead people being in some state in which God has further access to them are wrong.
Why didn't I see you object that Samuel's spirit after the burial of his dead body, was NOT Samuel in First Samuel 28 ?
Instead of re-cycled emotional appeals on my new thread, how about your reasoning from Scripture that Jesus and the believing thief crucified with Him did in fact not go in their soul and spirit to Paradise that same day because death rendered them non-existent.
"And he said, Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.
And He said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42,43)
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05 Feb 19
@sonship
"...I don't think the second death is either being kept alive or not existing. But it is a punishment..."
Sorry sonship but I genuinely believe you 'want' the above to be the case, as divine punishment is a key facet of your ideology and is inexplicably entwined with your understanding of divine righteousness. (Apparently at the cost of compassion, mercy and love).
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05 Feb 19
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Sorry sonship but I genuinely believe you 'want' the above to be the case, as divine punishment is a key facet of your ideology and is inexplicably entwined with your understanding of divine righteousness. (Apparently at the cost of compassion, mercy and love).
This is called a genetic fallacy.
Are you saying the teaching is wrong because my motives about it are biased? I need more than that.
Besides, I do not like all things I read in the Bible. I believe some things which I may find unpleasant.
This part I absolutely do not agree with you on.
(Apparently at the cost of compassion, mercy and love).
There is much to say about God's compassion, mercy and love in the whole Bible. Regardless, from the same mouth came the most fearful warnings that God will not however, give UP His eternal righteous nature in a sentimental way in order to save us.
If my judge at a trial in which I am guilty, is my dad, and lets me off the hook because of that, that can be a instance of unrighteousness.
That God coordinates both His eternal love and His eternal righteness is what I see in the Bible. He does this at the cross of Jesus at Calvary.
The love of God yet the righteousness of God are both at work there. If you think about it some, maybe like me, it all makes sense.
He will SURELY love us to the uttermost. He will not sacrifice His eternal righteousness, His rightness, His perfection, to excuse us biasedly. He forgives but in a way that upholds His character of perfect righteousness.
When the believing sinner comes to Jesus it may first seem like free forgiveness. What grows is a realization of Who died for him and that there is no such thing from God's point of view.
He does not say "I forget all about your debt, sloppily, sentimentally."
He says " Your debt has been paid in full. "
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05 Feb 19
@sonship saidGod's 'eternal righteous nature' isn't compromised in the slightest if he fails to burn non-believers in the fires of hell.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Sorry sonship but I genuinely believe you 'want' the above to be the case, as divine punishment is a key facet of your ideology and is inexplicably entwined with your understanding of divine righteousness. (Apparently at the cost of compassion, mercy and love).
This is called a genetic fallacy.
Are you saying the teaching is wr ...[text shortened]... orget all about your debt, sloppily, sentimentally."
He says " Your debt has been paid in full. "
You genuinely need to reflect on that.
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05 Feb 19
1 edit
God's 'eternal righteous nature' isn't compromised in the slightest if he fails to burn non-believers in the fires of hell.
You genuinely need to reflect on that.
You're an atheist by your own admission. You don't even acknowledge that God is before men. How can you dictate with authority what will and will not vindicate an attribute or characteristic of God?
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05 Feb 19
@sonship saidQuite easily (and with plenty of swagger).
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
God's 'eternal righteous nature' isn't compromised in the slightest if he fails to burn non-believers in the fires of hell.
You genuinely need to reflect on that.
You're an atheist by your own admission. You don't even acknowledge that God is before men. How can you dictate with authority what will and will not vindicate an attribute or characteristic of God?
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Quite easily (and with plenty of swagger).
I need to see your logic in the word of God. You probably with not believing in God don't believe in the word of God either.
Empty swagger is going to make your case?
You don't acknowledge God or thank Him. It says those who did not acknowledge God or thank Him became vain in their reasonings.
Because knowing God, they glorified HIm not as God nor thanked Him, but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. (Rom. 1:21)
Why don't you start with acknowledging God. If you don't acknowledge your Creator how are we suppose to trust you that you have God's glorification in mind in ANY regard?
First stop holding down the truth that wants to rise up in your human conscience. There is God a Creator Supreme.
Because that which may be known of God is manifest among them, for God has manifested it to them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, being apprehended by the things made, are clearly seen, bot His eternal power and divinity, for them to be without excuse. (Rom. 1:19,20)
His word says that men are without excuse to not believe in a Creator at least. You come with excuses though. You come with excuses claiming that you also know what will be to His vindication and what will not if He should have to judge the deniers.
You have a vested interest in getting away with suppressing the knowledge of God that His creation informs you concerning His eternal power and divine nature. Things concerning the New Testament may not be evident to you by creation. But God's existence, He says, is manifested to you.
You're holding down the truth in unrighteousness according to Romans.
There is also the danger along with having vain reasonings of developing a mind that cannot be approved by God. Some stubborn people God gave up. And their twisted minds took over. They could never have a mentality that is normal.
"And as they by testing did not approve of holding God in their full knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind to do the things which are not proper, ... " (1:28)
It goes on to describe the things that those who would not acknowledge God or thank Him descended into. The things which Paul says are worthy of death.
Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, insolent, arrogant, boasters, senseless, faithless, without natural affection, merciless;
Who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but have fellow delight in those who practice them." (Rom. 1:29-32)
So we all are involved in things which make us worthy of death. So every mouth is shut.
And if we judge others and do the same things ourselves, we are even more ripe for judgment.
judgement upon the ungodly is not the primary matter that glorifies God. But because of this we could not say judgment upon the ungodly does not at all vindicate and glorify God.
God vindicated Himself upon Pharoah in the Exodus.
For the Scripture says to Pharoah, For this very thing I have raised you up, that I might show forth My power in you, and that My name should be proclaimed in all the earth." (Rom. 9:17)
Pharoah's stubborn resistance to God, God providentially used to glorify His power upon him in total defeat.
Paul phrases the question - the "What if" -
"What if God, willing to show forth His wrath and make His power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?
And what it He should make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory." (See Rom. 9:22,23)
It appears that we will glorify Him as vessels of His mercy or vessels He long tolerated, but when toleration has ended - vessels of wrath upon which He will make known His power.
And He might do so on some forever.
05 Feb 19
@sonship saidI’m not interested sonship.
Divegeester, you still have an opportunity to show me from the Bible that death means non-existence to those who have died.
I see you in the thread Are All Warnings Threats? bring out again you old objections that God would not keep people alive after death to torture them.
While the emotional appeal is strong what I would like to see is your argument that ...[text shortened]... e said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42,43) [/quote]
On the occiasions where I’ve posted detailed and scripture back passages of text designed to help you, you just ignore them. My primary reason for engaging you is to defend my faith from your error.