education of evolution vs. creationism

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I realised the other night where one of the key points you seem to misunderstand. You have the entire argument 180 degrees the wrong way round.

Life didn't have to be the way it is. The conditions of the past didn't have to be "perfect" to result in us. We are not a necessary outcome for evolution.

Life is the way it is because of the c ...[text shortened]... ds of reaching this one.

We are the result, not the necessary outcome, of the conditions.

I understand life does not have to be the way it is, but that does not
make getting life the way it is, or the way we see it any more likely to
occur. With respect to conditions, what were they? How long was the
window of opportunity available to start the process and obviously how
do you know? If I were to walk in on a room and see scrabble pieces
lined up on a board I don't have to see ceratin words spelled out to
know someone put them on the board for a reason, any words would
show little pieces of plastic or wood didn't just evolve there, certain
words are not more likely be of any imporance than others, the design
of the words by information in the placement shows intent was there.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Does that make you feel better believing that, running down people who
disagree with you? You cannot respect someone who disagrees without
doing some type of harm to their reputation on this topic? You have to
make this some type of personal issue, with this us against them?
Kelly

He's claiming a controversy that doesn't exist; well, not for anyone EXCEPT rabid fundies.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not at all, no one is saying you cannot do small things by making
small moves, even your computer fluctuates current and voltages
and it isn't evolving into a mainframe, your computer by design
handles small fluctuations within a certain spec to work. You may
run a great distance, but there are places you cannot run like to
the moon, across an ocean, a ...[text shortened]... e, and
can lead to consumption of resources in inopportune places more
often than not.
Kelly

Sorry, but that sounds to me a whole lot like "yeah, but no".

Small changes over a long period of time can lead to a big overall effect. Period.


All the rest is irrelevant on the scales of time, space and number of organisms we're talking about.

Originally posted by KellyJay
“saltation” what is that, and what are you suggesting I’m saying?
Kelly

Saltation is a common evolutionary term. If you don't even know what it is, I'd suggest you may well be struggling to debate with any type of authority here.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Saltation is a common evolutionary term. If you don't even know what it is, I'd suggest you may well be struggling to debate with any type of authority here.

Since I did not use the word, why were you complaining about me
disagreeing with it by usuing it?

I'm expressing my opinions here you can worry about athority, let
someone tell you what must believe and move on if that is how you
view life. You want to end debate just because you are who you are,
is quite frankly not good enough, and more than a little arrogant to
boot.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Since I did not use the word, why were you complaining about me
disagreeing with it by usuing it?

I'm expressing my opinions here you can worry about athority, let
someone tell you what must believe and move on if that is how you
view life. You want to end debate just because you are who you are,
is quite frankly not good enough, and more than a little arrogant to
boot.
Kelly

Oh, stop crying. Put on the big boy face. I had enough of you bunch when we had the 3000 post "what's wrong with evolution" thread. You're just reciting the same rubbish here, hoping either no-one will challenge it, or it will have magically become true.

Saltation (again, I've defined this for YOU before) is the single step production, fully formed, of something that wasn't there before.

Saltation is statistically impossible (the creation story is a story of saltation, incidentally), or at least the odds are so low as to be effectively impossible. However, saltation (which is what you've been describing whether you used the word or not) IS NOT EVOLUTION.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Since I did not use the word, why were you complaining about me
disagreeing with it by usuing it?

I'm expressing my opinions here you can worry about athority, let
someone tell you what must believe and move on if that is how you
view life. You want to end debate just because you are who you are,
is quite frankly not good enough, and more than a little arrogant to
boot.
Kelly

You used the concept, I suppose you might not have known what it was called.

But that is the problem here. You want to debate, but not to learn what it is that are the concepts behind what you are debating about. And that is acceptable in a child, but not really in an adult. You need to try to understand what evolution is, rather than muddle it with all sorts of other ideas.

As to arrogant, he might be a little, but you don't see his frustration as I can...

Originally posted by snowinscotland
You used the concept, I suppose you might not have known what it was called.

But that is the problem here. You want to debate, but not to learn what it is that are the concepts behind what you are debating about. And that is acceptable in a child, but not really in an adult. You need to try to understand what evolution is, rather than muddle it wit ...[text shortened]... r ideas.

As to arrogant, he might be a little, but you don't see his frustration as I can...

I get a little sick defending the same tenants over and over again, against the same people. We had a 3000 post debate in the subject that Kelly was part of, and all this was thrashed out, and his position thoroughly demolished. I'm sick of bandying crooked words with people seemingly hell-bent on misrepresenting science.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
You used the concept, I suppose you might not have known what it was called.

But that is the problem here. You want to debate, but not to learn what it is that are the concepts behind what you are debating about. And that is acceptable in a child, but not really in an adult. You need to try to understand what evolution is, rather than muddle it wit ...[text shortened]... r ideas.

As to arrogant, he might be a little, but you don't see his frustration as I can...

Fine I used the concept and he has frustration, life is like that! The
issues are many fold in evolution as they are in so many things in life
that has an ounce of complexity to it. With respect to debate and
learning, I do pick up quite a bit here, but does not mean I have bow
down and accept everything that is thrown my way simply because he
says it or you do, or anyone else does!

Building something that is functionally complex can be an extremely
difficult undertaking. Putting together something that converts matter
to energy, uses that energy to power itself, reproduce, functions in a
complex manner, has specific stops and starts, behaves in such a fine
tuned manner from the molecular level up to systems, repairs itself,
and so on is incredible! You can throw in other things that are diverse
yet similar design in some cases and diverse in others ways yet living
together in niches doesn’t strike you as far beyond a happy
happenstance of a random mutation and the filtering process of
natural selection is ludicrous to me; I believe you have to be willfully
blind to keep that belief in your head.

Simply coming up with “enough time” will make all things possible
maybe an acceptable answer for you, for me it is like hearing others
complain about someone else saying, “God did it” the weight of the
work in question is an incredible under taking! I do believe we are
fearfully wonderfully made, but I do not think it is possible to do so
with time, chance, and natural processes when you look at how a
simple change in environment or some other factor could have
shut the whole proposed process down at any point in time.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I get a little sick defending the same tenants over and over again, against the same people. We had a 3000 post debate in the subject that Kelly was part of, and all this was thrashed out, and his position thoroughly demolished. I'm sick of bandying crooked words with people seemingly hell-bent on misrepresenting science.

Well if your view of demolishing an argument is you disagreeing with
it, I suppose I can see how you'd feel that way.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What a load of tosh. The only people with a problem with evolution are rabid fundies like you.

Rabid fundie, consider the plethora of your own slanted posts. I couldn't care two figs about whether people believe in evolution as the process which has brought the diversity we currently see on the planet, or whether they attribute it to God--- or any other contributor. People will believe whatever comforts them the most, regardless of any evidence otherwise.

It is a rare person indeed, who is able to cut the ties which bind them to chosen or inherited belief groups, who then ask, seek and knock on the door of truth, unconcerned who or what answers the door... their only commitment is to the answer.

With your deeply religious fervor, it does not appear that you are prepared to draw that line in the sand just yet.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Fine I used the concept and he has frustration, life is like that! The
issues are many fold in evolution as they are in so many things in life
that has an ounce of complexity to it. With respect to debate and
learning, I do pick up quite a bit here, but does not mean I have bow
down and accept everything that is thrown my way simply because he
says it ...[text shortened]... some other factor could have
shut the whole proposed process down at any point in time.
Kelly

I hope nobody is asking you to bow down before them; you have to think for yourself, otherwise how will you understand?

The beauty of evolution is that it is actually quite simple, basic concept, that has hugely far reaching and complex results. It might be that scottishinnz moves too quickly for you and therefore his frustration is simply the mismatch between you.

Let me try and get the basics across; and you can ponder it for a while. Firstly, let us look simply at evolution, not anything else. Look at your own family, have any of them not had children? Now think why that is the case, and what the effect has been on the genes present in the current generation.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
I hope nobody is asking you to bow down before them; you have to think for yourself, otherwise how will you understand?

The beauty of evolution is that it is actually quite simple, basic concept, that has hugely far reaching and complex results. It might be that scottishinnz moves too quickly for you and therefore his frustration is simply the mism ...[text shortened]... y that is the case, and what the effect has been on the genes present in the current generation.

Before you get to deep into your explanation why don't you tell me
what "YOU" mean when you say the word evolution?
Kelly

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Rabid fundie, consider the plethora of your own slanted posts. I couldn't care two figs about whether people believe in evolution as the process which has brought the diversity we currently see on the planet, or whether they attribute it to God--- or any other contributor. People will believe whatever comforts them the most, regardless of any evidence ot ...[text shortened]... igious fervor, it does not appear that you are prepared to draw that line in the sand just yet.

No. I'm merely sensible. Your camp is the one making extravagant claims about some magic man in spite of a complex lack of evidence for your position and a huge amount of contrary evidence.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
It might be that scottishinnz moves too quickly for you and therefore his frustration is simply the mismatch between you.

One should have thought the 20 or so PAGES (in the mammoth "What's wrong with evolution" thread) were I explained all this before, with evidence, explanations and examples would have been enough. Don't waste your time with the disingenuous.