08 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by UllrI didn't say no one was scared about it, but not all, please read the
You may doubt that what you have to say scares people all you want. But the reality Kelly is that there are a lot of weak minded and vulnerable fools out there in the world that would be scared. Scared by something that is nothing more than your own personal belief at the end of the day. I'm not suggesting that you are anyone else should change their beliefs y. It scares the living crap out of people and then conveniently passes the collection plate.
post. Weak minded people will, can, and do believe quite a bit of
things and that is the way it is; however, that does not at all have to
do if the subject matter it is either true or not, no matter how strong
willed or stong mind we are. As a matter of fact our beliefs or even
our disbeliefs about this topic or any others about reality changes
what is real or not. The only thing our thinking really alters are our
own beliefs and thoughts on any matter.
Kelly
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJayI disagree,our thinking is way more powerful than that. It could even save the world.
I didn't say no one was scared about it, but not all, please read the
post. Weak minded people will, can, and do believe quite a bit of
things and that is the way it is; however, that does not at all have to
do if the subject matter it is either true or not, no matter how strong
willed or stong mind we are. As a matter of fact our beliefs or even
our d ...[text shortened]... e only thing our thinking really alters are our
own beliefs and thoughts on any matter.
Kelly
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by Rajk999=============================
You are clearly impressed by longwinded explanations.
The facts are :
Paul said the wages of sin is death.
Christ said his judgment is JUST.
How is placing a serial rapist/killer alongside with an innocent person who never heard of Christ, a lake of fire JUST? You dont have a clue what JUST means. You simply regurgigate the doctrines your elders tea ...[text shortened]... erson but know nothing about Christ ... its eternal suffering. And I am the stupid one .... 😀
You are clearly impressed by longwinded explanations.
The facts are :
==============================
Don't whine to me about long winded explanations. If you are too lazy to read a thorough and careful explanation of a biblical concept then I won't bother writing to you.
======================
Paul said the wages of sin is death.
Christ said his judgment is JUST.
========================
The wages of sin being death has NO EFFECT on the matter we are discussing. The second death is a death or else it would not be called the second one.
And the "second death" is "the lake of fire" - (Rev. 20:14). So pointing out that the wages of sin is death does NOTHING to nullify the teaching of eternal torment in the lake of fire.
====================================
How is placing a serial rapist/killer alongside with an innocent person who never heard of Christ, a lake of fire JUST? You dont have a clue what JUST means. You simply regurgigate the doctrines your elders teach you.
====================================
That is another subject. The fairness or justness of the matter is ANOTHER SUBJECT.
The task you have is to prove that there is NO eternal suffering in a lake of fire. You have failed so far to do that.
===============================
Furthermore all your quotes are from Revelation which is almost all figurative. NOBODY can claim to fully understand that book. Its a mystery and any 'understanding' are just guesses.
=================================
Difficulty of interpretation is a weak excuse. I gave you 8 points. They cannot ALL be that esoteric.
You have not yet demonstrated that there is no teaching of an eternal suffering in a lake of fire.
Refute the 8 points one at a time and stop complaining that no one understands. You were very bold to proclaim that you did understand better and that I was stupid. So back it up then if your understanding of the subject is more accurate.
==============================
Ops .. I forgot you are the once-saved-always-saved guy. The madman that killed 3 people in the LA gym recently is a product of your doctrine.
====================================
Shift of subject. Red Herring.
Argue the Eight POINTS one by one. That will impress me, not trying to shift to another conversation.
=========================
So .. accept Christ and you can kill and still get salvation. If you are a good person but know nothing about Christ ... its eternal suffering. And I am the stupid one ....
=================================
The fairness or the justice of eternal punishment is another conversation. We are arguing about the EXISTENCE of it.
Disprove that first. You cannot. So you are trying to change to another argument.
Let Galvaston take a crack at it if he wants to. At least he is more respectful. Or let Robbie try.
You are getting nowhere fast.
08 Aug 09
2 edits
you know Jay, for we have been through this on more than one occasion, and i do not want to assume anything, but Gavalston and i are probably in agreement that the second death means no hope of a resurrection, thus eternal separation from God, thus while the punishment is eternal, it is not composed of any conscious torment. The basis of this is that Christ states that sins against the Holy Spirit are inexcusable, all other ones being excusable.
As for our friend Raj, i have nothing to say to him, for he peddles in half construed 'truths' and sometimes outright lies, and i feel is best ignored.
(Matthew 12:30) . . .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIts a shame we have to deal in such absolutes, but , alas,this seems to be the way the human mind works.
you know Jay, for we have been through this on more than one occasion, and i do not want to assume anything, but Gavalston and i are probably in agreement that the second death means no hope of a resurrection, thus eternal separation from God, thus while the punishment is eternal, it is not composed of any conscious torment. The basis of this is that ...[text shortened]... .He that is not on my side is against me, and [b]he that does not gather with me scatters.[/b]
I like you and Raj (and every one else), but if we were in the same room together I'm sure sparks would fly.
Anyway who on here doesn't peddle half-truths(at best)?
08 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillHow is it that you are unable to see the contradiction here:
[b]=============================
You are clearly impressed by longwinded explanations.
The facts are :
==============================
Don't whine to me about long winded explanations. If you are too lazy to read a thorough and careful explanation of a biblical concept then I won't bother writing to you.
==================== At least he is more respectful. Or let Robbie try.
You are getting nowhere fast.[/b]
The wages of sin being death has NO EFFECT on the matter we are discussing. The second death is a death or else it would not be called the second one.
And the "second death" is "the lake of fire" - (Rev. 20:14). So pointing out that the wages of sin is death does NOTHING to nullify the teaching of eternal torment in the lake of fire.
DEATH and ETERNAL TORMENT are mutually exclusive.
The lake of fire is torment AND death. When death comes, the torment is over. Thats the only way the Bible wont contradict itself.
08 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999=================================
How is it that you are unable to see the contradiction here:
[i]The wages of sin being death has NO EFFECT on the matter we are discussing. The second death is a death or else it would not be called the second one.
And the "second death" is "the lake of fire" - (Rev. 20:14). So pointing out that the wages of sin is death does NOTHING to nullify the te ...[text shortened]... When death comes, the torment is over. Thats the only way the Bible wont contradict itself.
DEATH and ETERNAL TORMENT are mutually exclusive.
The lake of fire is torment AND death. When death comes, the torment is over. Thats the only way the Bible wont contradict itself.
================================== [/i]
Rajk999, you complain about my long responses. The reason my responses are not always 15 words or less is because I like to make myself clear. Sometimes one has to explain what one is not saying as well as what one is saying.
Now you have a point to discuss here. But I don't want to explain myself to you if you are lazy and expect 10 word answers to everything.
I will wait for you to tell me if you are in the mood for reading what I take the time to elaborate upon.
Are you going to carefully read my reply or do you feel like not reading today?
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillNot for me, but for others who are trying to read your posts.
[b]=================================
DEATH and ETERNAL TORMENT are mutually exclusive.
The lake of fire is torment AND death. When death comes, the torment is over. Thats the only way the Bible wont contradict itself.
================================== [/i]
Rajk999, you complain about my long responses. The reason my responses are ...[text shortened]... ate upon.
Are you going to carefully read my reply or do you feel like not reading today?[/b]
You will get more readership if you answer briefly and in simple language ... like Christ did. Try it.
Is there a contradition? No need for a long answer.
Is this verse relevant?
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Christ is saying God will destroy both soul and body in hell. I assume thats the lake of fire.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelthe problem is, that when someone has an agenda, to actively undermine the faith of another and spread lies and deception about their beliefs, then one has either two options, he can try to refute those lies, or he can simply let others judge for themselves what type of person he is, I have choose the latter option simply for convenience sake for 'we cannot stop to kick every dog that barks at us' - Charles Russell.
Its a shame we have to deal in such absolutes, but , alas,this seems to be the way the human mind works.
I like you and Raj (and every one else), but if we were in the same room together I'm sure sparks would fly.
Anyway who on here doesn't peddle half-truths(at best)?
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by Rajk999Unfortunately Jaywill, I have to agree with Raj here.
Not for me, but for others who are trying to read your posts.
You will get more readership if you answer briefly and in simple language ... like Christ did. Try it.
Is there a contradition? No need for a long answer.
Is this verse relevant?
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is ...[text shortened]...
Christ is saying God will destroy both soul and body in hell. I assume thats the lake of fire.
Why dont you just say what you think. If someone asks for a scriptural quote then you could provide it.
Thats not to say you dont have a point...some things need to be expanded upon and I respect that.
I suspect you will get more readership if your posts were a bit shorter.
Its just us stupid humans , we are so impatient...especially in the age of the internet.
08 Aug 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999==========================
Not for me, but for others who are trying to read your posts.
You will get more readership if you answer briefly and in simple language ... like Christ did. Try it.
Is there a contradition? No need for a long answer.
Is this verse relevant?
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is ...[text shortened]...
Christ is saying God will destroy both soul and body in hell. I assume thats the lake of fire.
Not for me, but for others who are trying to read your posts.
You will get more readership if you answer briefly and in simple language ... like Christ did. Try it.
================================
Thankyou, however the issue here is not the size of my readership.
If God wanted to make the Bible four chapters instead of sixty six books He could have done so.
You are NOT going to get little trite two liners for all profound theological problems in the Bible.
The very nature of your question about DEATH indicated that I could have avoided some issues by simply elaborating more. I didn't so you misunderstood my intention. I'd like to avoid that in the future with you.
==========================
Is there a contradition? No need for a long answer.
Is this verse relevant?
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Christ is saying God will destroy both soul and body in hell. I assume thats the lake of fire.
====================================
I'll elaborate in due time.
But for right now I can tell you that your concept of the word "destroy" is to annhilate into non-existence. I can prove to you that in the Bible the word "destroy" in fact does NOT always mean to pass out of existence.
In the book by Robert Govette "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" there are 18 PAGES devoted to the question "What Is Death?".
I will be consulting that scholarly work to address your objections. And I do not promise you 10 words or less which will only lead to your assuming wrong things and asking more questions.
And don't try to condemn me for refering to the research that some other person has done on the subject in great detail. You should know by now that I do my own reasoning. But as well, I am not the least ashamed of benefitting from the research of previous qualified writers.
You stay tuned. Don't be lazy about reading, and I'll address your objections.
I read YOUR posts carefully without whining about their length (when there is something there I want to read).