Eternal punishment

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok .. I read all you posts carefully. Its not about a different eternal fire, or multiple places of damnation. Its about eternal suffering. Only in the case of the Devil and his angels is the punishment of eternal suffering clearly stated.

Yes, I would believe this - [i]Well those followers of Antichrist are tormented forever and ever. But those whose na to have ONE and ONE ONLY punishment for ALL sins, and the most extreme of punishments at that?

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I think what you have is one possible explanation. But unfortunately it ignores justice which Christ spoke of. How can it be justice to have ONE and ONE ONLY punishment for ALL sins, and the most extreme of punishments at that?
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I do not know if there will be different degrees of punishment according to different degrees of the unbeliever's sins.

Maybe that is the case. I don't think anyone should be so curious as to reject Christ so as to find out.

The footnote of the Recovery Version says that the unique sin which causes the lost to perish is not believing in the Lord Jesus (John 16:9)

I do know that there are two things man does not understand very well. That is the perfect holiness of God and the awfulness of sin.

We also fail to appreciate to what degree God went to save sinners from this justice of a perfect holy God. And we do not appreciate that in being incarnate and dying on the cross for our sins, God has done the uttermost in His great love that we might be saved.

The books of Acts says that God purchased the church "through His own blood." So God had to have been incarnated in Christ in order to have blood to shed for our sins, to redeem the sinners from the curse of the law of God:

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained through his own blood." (Acts 20:28)

It is often the case that those who do not believe that God was incarnated in Jesus Christ also do not understand that the rejection of Christ will cause a sinner to be punished eternally. The two errors very often go hand in hand.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
I think what you have is one possible explanation. But unfortunately it ignores justice which Christ spoke of. How can it be justice to have ONE and ONE ONLY punishment for ALL sins, and the most extreme of punishments at that?
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I do not know if there will be di ...[text shortened]... t will cause a sinner to be punished eternally. The two errors very often go hand in hand.[/b]

Ole Adam and Eve must have really sinned bad. We can have an eternity of torture to think of all the bad we have done in our short human existence. Or just not exist. I never really had a chance as a perfect person to not sin. I wonder if a just God factors that in?

Originally posted by joe beyser
Ole Adam and Eve must have really sinned bad. We can have an eternity of torture to think of all the bad we have done in our short human existence. Or just not exist. I never really had a chance as a perfect person to not sin. I wonder if a just God factors that in?

So what would your punishment be for sin if you were God for those who sinned? Would there even be punishment?

Originally posted by whodey
So what would your punishment be for sin if you were God for those who sinned? Would there even be punishment?

I wouldn't have created a world where such a possibility existed. But of course I don't have Gods infinite wisdom or know what the game plan is.

If there was sin in the world if I was god though, I would probably be pretty lenient. I would probably not care about having folks worship me. I don't think I would like laying down the rules to people that they either worship me or burn forever. Would seem like a rapist forcing a woman to say she loved the perpetrator at gun point after trying to convince her he loves her.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Because thats what the Bible says.

If you believe otherwise, then please quote a verse similar to this one referring to people.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 (King James Version)

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Originally posted by joe beyser
Ole Adam and Eve must have really sinned bad. We can have an eternity of torture to think of all the bad we have done in our short human existence. Or just not exist. I never really had a chance as a perfect person to not sin. I wonder if a just God factors that in?

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Ole Adam and Eve must have really sinned bad. We can have an eternity of torture to think of all the bad we have done in our short human existence. Or just not exist. I never really had a chance as a perfect person to not sin. I wonder if a just God factors that in?
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If you reject Jesus then you will have eternity to think about it.

But probably the one who refuses the redemptive love of Jesus Christ would find it more agonizing to step out of the lake of fire into the glorious light of God's loving presence and kingdom.

In this sense eternal damnation is the ultimate escape from the kingdom of God. To see what you have rejected, I think, would be a greater torment, than the punishing fires of perdition.

The sinner's God created conscience will probably cry out within them for the relief of punishment upon seeing what and Who they have rejected.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Revelation 20:14-15 (King James Version)

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where is the eternal suffering?
You ASSume its there?
Wrong .. find another verse.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
I think what you have is one possible explanation. But unfortunately it ignores justice which Christ spoke of. How can it be justice to have ONE and ONE ONLY punishment for ALL sins, and the most extreme of punishments at that?
===================================== [/i]

I do not know if there will be di ...[text shortened]... t will cause a sinner to be punished eternally. The two errors very often go hand in hand.[/b]

You have made many assumptions to arrive at your conclusions, and thats ok, as long as we understand that there could be a chance (however slim) that they might be wrong.

There are passages suggesting death, without the hope of resurrection for certain classes of people. What do you make of this passage:

Rom 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Sounds like those who never knew the law and sinned will perish.
Now thats an absolute truth.
No assumptions
No maybes.
No 'well if this.. then that' kind of analysis.

Plain and simple .. those who sin without the law will perish. Nothing about eternal suffering.

And thats an example of a just judgment.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Where is the eternal suffering?
You ASSume its there?
Wrong .. find another verse.

I believe I answered your question directly, denying it seems a little
strange for you. In context we find this, they shared the same fate,
ending up in the same place.

Revelation 20:10-15

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So no other verse is needed I answered your question.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe I answered your question directly, denying it seems a little
strange for you. In context we find this, they shared the same fate,
ending up in the same place.

Revelation 20:10-15

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night f ...[text shortened]... as cast into the lake of fire.


So no other verse is needed I answered your question.
Kelly

Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire as well. Was death and hell tormented day and night for ever and ever? The lake of fire does not determine the torment. God/Christ determines the torment.

You are a shallow thinker. Take some time and think a litte. The lake of fire is a place of destruction. Only the devil and his angels were sentenced to be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Nobody else. You have no passage in the bible that supports your view.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire as well. Was death and hell tormented day and night for ever and ever? The lake of fire does not determine the torment. God/Christ determines the torment.

You are a shallow thinker. Take some time and think a litte. The lake of fire is a place of destruction. Only the devil and his angels were sentenced to b ...[text shortened]... night for ever and ever. Nobody else. You have no passage in the bible that supports your view.

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Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire as well. Was death and hell tormented day and night for ever and ever? The lake of fire does not determine the torment. God/Christ determines the torment.
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No other verses are needed. I think KJ is right.

You prove to us that there is something ELSE besides torment going on in the lake of fire. Where is your ground to believe that something other than torment will be happening there ?


If you cannot find any passage proving that then either there is nothing else going on there or God has not told us.

What we have not been told by God (that He would not have us know) is none of our business. At least it is none of our business in this age. And what you have is only speculation, with a rather rebellious attitude towards what is clearly revealed.

What He has told us is our business. Whoever's name was not written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


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Take some time and think a litte. The lake of fire is a place of destruction. Only the devil and his angels were sentenced to be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Nobody else. You have no passage in the bible that supports your view.
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Extreme stubborness, as you have displayed, does not come across to me as "deep thinking". I see some "deep twisting" of the clear words of the Bible going on from your view.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire as well. Was death and hell tormented day and night for ever and ever? The lake of fire does not determine the torment. God/Christ determines the torment.

You are a shallow thinker. Take some time and think a litte. The lake of fire is a place of destruction. Only the devil and his angels were sentenced to b ...[text shortened]... night for ever and ever. Nobody else. You have no passage in the bible that supports your view.

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Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire as well. Was death and hell tormented day and night for ever and ever?
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The lake of fire can be viewed as the universal trash can, a dump of things no longer needed by God.

Death and Hades, it says are cast into the lake of fire. They are no longer needed.

If Death and Hades cannot be tormented that STILL does nothing to make the torment associated with the lake of fire go away.

How is clinging to the fact that Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire stop the smoke of the tormenting of those in Revelation 14:10 from happening?

"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

How does Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire give them rest?

And if you argue that they are being tormented in some other place besides the lake of fire, what does that do for them ?

Do you honestly think such clear and dreadful warnings are given to man by God so man can hold out on some slim, hypothetical, unspoken, unsubstantiated hope that just maybe there is a contingency?

You should consider WHO you are really serving by laboring so hard to neutralize the clear warnings of the divine revelation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You have made many assumptions to arrive at your conclusions, and thats ok, as long as we understand that there could be a chance (however slim) that they might be wrong.

There are passages suggesting death, without the hope of resurrection for certain classes of people. What do you make of this passage:

[i]Rom 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons law will perish. Nothing about eternal suffering.

And thats an example of a just judgment.

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Rom 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Sounds like those who never knew the law and sinned will perish.
Now thats an absolute truth.
No assumptions
No maybes.
No 'well if this.. then that' kind of analysis.

Plain and simple .. those who sin without the law will perish. Nothing about eternal suffering.

And thats an example of a just judgment.
==================================== [/i]

I see Romans 2 as part of Paul's strategy of laying the ground work for Justification by Faith.

From 2:1 through 16 he is laying the bases for condemnation upon self righteous men and women.

I would not read too much into "as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law ..." because Paul is laying the groundwork for the gospel of justification by faith.

In the very next verse Paul writes "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Yet in 3:20 he writes "Because out of works of the law NO FLESH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE HIM ..." (My emphasis).

So I take chapter two as part of Paul's preparation to teach justification by faith. Personally, I would not make this preparation work in early Romans contradict his main thesis. I think that would be taking it out of context.

I may be misinterpreting Romans 2:13. I am opened to alternative views. However, personally I do not let it distract me from Paul's larger burden on Grace and Justification by Faith so carefully elaborated on in the coming chapters of this letter.

The main point of Romans 2:1-16 is that the self righteous who are good at pointing out the faults of others, are themselves under condemnation. Just having the knowledge of good and evil does not exempt them from condemnation.

Originally posted by joe beyser
I wouldn't have created a world where such a possibility existed. But of course I don't have Gods infinite wisdom or know what the game plan is.

If there was sin in the world if I was god though, I would probably be pretty lenient. I would probably not care about having folks worship me. I don't think I would like laying down the rules to people that t ...[text shortened]... oman to say she loved the perpetrator at gun point after trying to convince her he loves her.

For me, the whole issue revolves around the issue of "freedom" and God being a God of love. In any mutually loving relationships there is freedom to love or reject the other party. Without this freedom, a loving relationship does NOT exist and could not exist.

So what happens when one rejects a God of love and life? Do you not embrace the opposite of love and life? In short, this rejection brings sin and sin brings suffering and ultimately death. So now God sees sin and suffering in creation. If he then lets it continue and be indifferent to it, would he still be a God of love? It seems to me he would find a way to end this rebellion and at the same time still allow creation to have free will in the process. This is how I look at the issue.

Now as far as worship, I veiw worship as an expression of my faith that God is benevolent and all good things come from him. In short, it is a choice to give credit where credit is due. Of course, if you do not view him as benevolent and the source of all goodness, you will not worship nor want to do so. Of course, that is you free will not to do so.

Originally posted by whodey
For me, the whole issue revolves around the issue of "freedom" and God being a God of love. In any mutually loving relationships there is freedom to love or reject the other party. Without this freedom, a loving relationship does NOT exist and could not exist.

So what happens when one rejects a God of love and life? Do you not embrace the opposite of lo ...[text shortened]... dness, you will not worship nor want to do so. Of course, that is you free will not to do so.

I don't see anything I disagree with there. It is just that some folks I have encountered along the trail seem pretty sure they know God and the rest can burn in hell. Of course free will is important and that is why holding a gun to someones head isn't free will. The worship for me seems odd in that it is God. God is above the need for worship and other humanistic rituals I would think. I do understand what you said. I have wondered if Satan was perfect then how was he not able to see the path he was taking would not lead him to death? We didn't even get the chance to be created perfect. Some kind of Adam and Eve thing tainted us. I just don't understand it.