Originally posted by joe beyser========================================
I don't see anything I disagree with there. It is just that some folks I have encountered along the trail seem pretty sure they know God and the rest can burn in hell. Of course free will is important and that is why holding a gun to someones head isn't free will. The worship for me seems odd in that it is God. God is above the need for worship and other ...[text shortened]... be created perfect. Some kind of Adam and Eve thing tainted us. I just don't understand it.
We didn't even get the chance to be created perfect. Some kind of Adam and Eve thing tainted us. I just don't understand it.
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Why don't you look more at where salvation in Christ is to carry man. We shall be like Him. Collectively we shall match Him to even be called his "Wife" and His Bride.
We can be presented before Him without blemish, spotless in love as sons of the Father. That is not only positionally justified. That is also personally transformed to be perfected in holiness in character.
His salvation transforms man into His glorious image that we may be with Him before His Father. This a salvation to not only recover man but to instate him in a higher position.
Since Christ's salvation is headed in that direction, why not contemplate less where man has been and look to where Christ is taking the saved?
And why not consider that "All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose" . God is able to engineer the entire past to the glorious benefit of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
I think this is better than moaning about the fact that you were not created perfect. You have to chance to make the perfect choice to join the splendid destiny of Christ and the sons of God.
Originally posted by Rajk999Follow the context of the full passage, I'll not insult your thinking, but
Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire as well. Was death and hell tormented day and night for ever and ever? The lake of fire does not determine the torment. God/Christ determines the torment.
You are a shallow thinker. Take some time and think a litte. The lake of fire is a place of destruction. Only the devil and his angels were sentenced to b ...[text shortened]... night for ever and ever. Nobody else. You have no passage in the bible that supports your view.
you do need to read the text. You can either take what was written to
mean what it says, or suggest it does not mean what it says, that is
of course completely your call.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe lake of fire is eternal torment to the devil and his angels and death and destruction to everyone else. Thats what the passage says. End of story.
Follow the context of the full passage, I'll not insult your thinking, but
you do need to read the text. You can either take what was written to
mean what it says, or suggest it does not mean what it says, that is
of course completely your call.
Kelly
Originally posted by jaywillSo Romans 2 is about xyz, and Paul is trying to say abc, therefore the point made here .. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: ... is not relevant and you put that aside without dealing with it.
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Rom 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Sounds like those who never knew the law and sinned will perish.
Now thats an absolute truth.
No assumptions
No maybes n. Just having the knowledge of good and evil does not exempt them from condemnation.[/b]
Jaywill .. youre a joke. I cant believe you are serious about understanding what the Bible is saying. All you do is repeat what your elders tell you without re-processing it in your mind to see if it makes sense. You are a robot. Im done with this topic.
Originally posted by Rajk999===================================
So Romans 2 is about xyz, and Paul is trying to say abc, therefore the point made here .. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: ... is not relevant and you put that aside without dealing with it.
Jaywill .. youre a joke. I cant believe you are serious about understanding what the Bible is saying. All you do is repeat ...[text shortened]... e-processing it in your mind to see if it makes sense. You are a robot. Im done with this topic.
Jaywill .. youre a joke. I cant believe you are serious about understanding what the Bible is saying. All you do is repeat what your elders tell you without re-processing it in your mind to see if it makes sense. You are a robot. Im done with this topic.
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You've played that card before. It didn't impress me then and does not now.
1.) Even if I WAS repeating what my elders taught me, what they taught me is not necessarily wrong just for that reason.
2.) If you can't see that I do quite a bit of thinking on my feet here, researching, comparing, and explaining things spontaneously, it is only a little unfortunate. I'll certainly survive that.
3.) Where we get things from is not as important as to whether it is good teaching or not.
4.) It is vain glory for me to come here to try to impress everyone "Look at ME everybody. I can say something ORIGINAL!"
Big Deal.
5.) I am concerned with what is true.
6.) Even Jesus started His ministry repeating exactly what John the Baptist said before Him:
"Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand".
7.) Lastly, my repeating elders or not repeating elders can't help your very poor and very incorrect analysis of the subject matter here.
My proof of you being wrong has been accomplished. The debate is really over. You have not proved that eternal punishment is not eternal suffering and eternal torment.
Originally posted by joe beyserNone of us are perfect in the sense that we don't know or see everything. If we did, we would be God. In fact that is why we need faith from time to time. There will always be the need at times to rely on the One who knows all and sees all.
I don't see anything I disagree with there. It is just that some folks I have encountered along the trail seem pretty sure they know God and the rest can burn in hell. Of course free will is important and that is why holding a gun to someones head isn't free will. The worship for me seems odd in that it is God. God is above the need for worship and other be created perfect. Some kind of Adam and Eve thing tainted us. I just don't understand it.
Of course, there will be a whole host of people ready to give you a who's who of who will roast in hell and who will not. What I can tell you, however, is that surprises are in store for everyone!! Therefore, I don't waste my time trying to do God's work for him by judging people, rather, I simply point to Christ as "the way".
Originally posted by whodeyThat is well put. I have pretty much ignored most teachings for this reason. God has a plan you can bet on that, but some of the teachings look suspisious to me.
None of us are perfect in the sense that we don't know or see everything. If we did, we would be God. In fact that is why we need faith from time to time. There will always be the need at times to rely on the One who knows all and sees all.
Of course, there will be a whole host of people ready to give you a who's who of who will roast in hell and who ...[text shortened]... to do God's work for him by judging people, rather, I simply point to Christ as "the way".
Originally posted by joe beyserWe should follow the example of Christ and the disciples and observe how they did so. If you then agree with it, that is spreading the GOOD NEWS, then just do it!!
That is well put. I have pretty much ignored most teachings for this reason. God has a plan you can bet on that, but some of the teachings look suspisious to me.
As for the bit about worship, perhaps I will start another thread about it. In fact, the sermon I heard today was on that very topic.
Originally posted by whodeyI was thinking of starting a thread on that too. Glad you did.
We should follow the example of Christ and the disciples and observe how they did so. If you then agree with it, that is spreading the GOOD NEWS, then just do it!!
As for the bit about worship, perhaps I will start another thread about it. In fact, the sermon I heard today was on that very topic.
One reason the natural mind reels at the thought of eternal punishment is because we do not realize that Jesus is God.
Some people count Jesus as a THIRD party coming in between two parties to solve the problem of sin. It one party is man. The other party is God. The misconception is that a THIRD party, Jesus, comes in and suffers for the sins of the first party man against the second party God.
But Jesus is God. God takes into Himself the consequences of the sinner's sins. He is God / man.
He has to be God in order to qualify to be crucified for the sinner. He has to be Man in order to bear the wage of death. The wages of sin is death. God cannot die. Man can die. So He must be God/Man. Him being Man makes it possible for Him to die. Him being God makes His death have eternal effectiveness and significance.
The Lord Jesus is not a third party taking up the consequence of my sins against God. He is God Himself bearing those consequences. I have sinned and God in Christ has incurred the judgment of my sins. All judgment is laid on the Lord Jesus, He is God/man, so the party who has been sinned against (God), has borne the loss.
Refusing to believe eternal punishment often goes hand in hand with not seeing that God as a man has incurred the penalty of our sins. Another party is not qualified to do so. And it would not be righteous for another party to do so.
Forgiveness occurs when the offended one bears the loss of the offense. God in Christ has suffered the loss on the cross of Calvary. To reject Christ then is to reject that God went to the uttermost point that we might be forgiven.
It is not surprising that those who teach that Jesus was an angel cannot accept the teaching of eternal damnation.
Because they cannot believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh they cannot see the enormity of rejecting this dying Savior.
They also do not realize that it would be unrighteous for a THIRD party to come in to be punished for the offense between two parties. The balance is established because the offended party takes into itself the loss incurred by the offense of the offending party.
God in Christ, allows His sinless being, His totally righteous being, to incur the divine judgment for man's sins. The God-man has to be both God and man to accomplish this great redemption.
He has to be God to be the offended one taking up the loss inflicted by man's transgression. He has to be man in order to die. He has to be the mingling, the incorporation of God and man to accomplish this eternal redemption.
As much as it is possible for us to comprehend, God died for us. He has therefore gone to the uttermost in His love to save us. He has saved us in a way which corresponds to His righteous procedure. He has saved us in a way that matches His holiness and perfect justice.
He can now forgive us righteously, who believe in Christ. His forgiveness now is not "back door merchandise". His forgiveness is not sentimental. It is according to His righteous procedure and upholding the principles of His dignity and glory.
His love and His justice have worked together harmoniously in the death of the God-man Christ on Calvary.
Originally posted by jaywill1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
One reason the natural mind reels at the thought of eternal punishment is because we do not realize that Jesus is God. ...
So if Christ is God, therefore
- woman is man
- man is Christ.
Thats it . That explains everything .. I now get it ... 😀
The chances are that where you see someone denying that Christ is God incarnate you will also encounter arguments against eternal damnation.
The significance of what God has done in Christ escapes these unbelievers. Therefore the last recourse to reconciliation to God for our sins is not appreciated by these rebels.
Originally posted by jaywillI am not a rebel.
The chances are that where you see someone denying that Christ is God incarnate you will also encounter arguments against eternal damnation.
The significance of what God has done in Christ escapes these unbelievers. Therefore the last recourse to reconciliation to God for our sins is not appreciated by these rebels.
I believe.
Christ is God
woman is man
man is Christ.
We are all one.
Originally posted by jaywillThat is true. I have other motives however.
The chances are that where you see someone denying that Christ is God incarnate you will also encounter arguments against eternal damnation.
The significance of what God has done in Christ escapes these unbelievers. Therefore the last recourse to reconciliation to God for our sins is not appreciated by these rebels.