10 Aug 09
Originally posted by daniel58The brain washing you have obviously been subjected to has really worked, hasn't it? You repeat meaningless phrases and call it faith. Jesus is infinite? Explain to me exactly what that means.
Jesus is infinite, therefore is death gained infinite merit, which we cannot have done.
10 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillI have no probelem with the statement "Christ is God incarnate".
The chances are that where you see someone denying that Christ is God incarnate you will also encounter arguments against eternal damnation.
The significance of what God has done in Christ escapes these unbelievers. Therefore the last recourse to reconciliation to God for our sins is not appreciated by these rebels.
(I am a rebel)
However I still dont see why that means we are headed for eternal damnation.
I am a rebel. Against the established systems of control. Control through the brandishing the fear of "damnation".
I am a "believer" in that which was(or is ) true.
Christ was a bhodisattva and nothing more.
He has done his job and is regretting a lot of the things that were done in his name.
Leave the poor bloke alone. He has enough on his plate.
If you think Christ has done more than say.... me(for example) in the way of suffereng for others sins constantly reminds me how narrow minded most of christian beliefs are.
Those beliefs are dead truisms that have there place, but are not the be -all -and -end- all of Spirituality.
Please stop making out like they are.
10 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by karoly aczelSearch the Spirituality forum for a discussion I started entitled "Beyond Jesus is God"
I have no probelem with the statement "Christ is God incarnate".
(I am a rebel)
However I still dont see why that means we are headed for eternal damnation.
I am a rebel. Against the established systems of control. Control through the brandishing the fear of "damnation".
I am a "believer" in that which was(or is ) true.
Christ was a bhodisat ...[text shortened]... re not the be -all -and -end- all of Spirituality.
Please stop making out like they are.
There is no reason for me to accept criticism that I do not speak very much about other aspects of Christ's ministry.
This thread happens to be on eternal damnation.
10 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillAnd the thread title is what I was responding to, dear Sir.
Search the Spirituality forum for a discussion I started entitled [b]"Beyond Jesus is God"
There is no reason for me to accept criticism that I do not speak very much about other aspects of Christ's ministry.
This thread happens to be on eternal damnation.[/b]
10 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJayYou are doing the reading things that I dont see. You are assuming that the lake of fire implies eternal torment. The passage did not say that.
Okay, you are reading things I don't see into the text.
Kelly
The passage says 2 groups are cast into the fire :
- Devil etc
- Others.
Only is the case of the Devil did the passage specify that they were tormented for ever in the fire.
In the case of the others, they were cast into the fire but it was not specified what happened to them. If I have to assume here, I would assume death, becuase thats in line with other passages.
YOU MAKE THE ASSUMPTION they were tormented for ever.
I am taking it as it reads and making no assumptions
10 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by acb123He is infinite in ALL His works and actions, because He is an infinite God.
The brain washing you have obviously been subjected to has really worked, hasn't it? You repeat meaningless phrases and call it faith. Jesus is infinite? Explain to me exactly what that means.
11 Aug 09
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm assuming that what it does to one it does to all, you are on the
You are doing the reading things that I dont see. You are assuming that the lake of fire implies eternal torment. The passage did not say that.
The passage says 2 groups are cast into the fire :
- Devil etc
- Others.
Only is the case of the Devil did the passage specify that they were tormented for ever in the fire.
In the case of the others, the ...[text shortened]... E ASSUMPTION they were tormented for ever.
I am taking it as it reads and making no assumptions
other hand changing that to mean something else without cause.
Kelly
11 Aug 09
6 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayI think Rajk999 is holding to a slim hope that someone could be thrown into a lake of fire and brimestone and something else would happen besides what most of us would expect.
I'm assuming that what it does to one it does to all, you are on the
other hand changing that to mean something else without cause.
Kelly
I think throughout human history, if people looked down into a lava filled volcanic lake they would know what to expect to happen to anything cast into it.
I ask myself "What does the Bible reasonably expect to be communicated by the fact that someone would be thrown into such a lake of fire and brimestone?"
It has explicitly discribed to us the torment of the devil, his false prophet, his antichrist, and the followers of antichrist. The demons asked Jesus if He came to torment them before the time " ... You, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us?" (Matt. 8:29b).
Their destiny is in the same lake of fire. I don't think we need to know the science of it. What is communicated is that spirit or human has no good result by being in such a second death.
Rajk999 is seeking an improbable loophole in what the Bible has communicated about this. He is arguing that what is pretty clear is not clear enough that the imagination cannot seek an exception that some other result could be to the person thrown into a lake of fire.
It makes me wonder if those who display such stubborness are involved with the occult. "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry." (1 Sam. 15:23))
11 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillWe see this type of thing used in other arguments with scripture, they
I think Rajk999 is holding to a slim hope that someone could be thrown into a lake of fire and brimestone and something else would happen besides what most of us would expect.
I think throughout human history, if people looked down into a volcanic lake they would know what to expect to happen to anything cast into it.
I ask myself "What does the Bib ...[text shortened]... s the sin of witchcraft and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry." (1 Sam. 15:23))[/b]
change meanings so that they get this double speak and claim there
is confusion in the text, when the only real confusion is their unwillingness
to read what is there and leave it as that.
Kelly
11 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayNow that we have pretty much proved that this second death is an eternal punishment, there is a finer point that I would like to elaborate upon.
We see this type of thing used in other arguments with scripture, they
change meanings so that they get this double speak and claim there
is confusion in the text, when the only real confusion is their unwillingness
to read what is there and leave it as that.
Kelly
But I need to discuss it with someone who really knows the Bible well. And it doesn't mean they have to agree.
But it is possible for a eternally saved person to be hurt temporarily by the second death but nor remain there forever. And those people would include Christians. I submit that before the eternal age, some Christians could be hurt by the second death temporarily. Many brothers do not realize this. I think I can convince brothers in the Lord that there is a serious case for this in the New Testament.
Do you think it would be profitable for me to elaborate on this?
If you don't buy it, I understand. If you would like I will lay the case out for your examination - Berean style.
