18 Jun 14
Originally posted by PatNovakA good read you'd recommend?
"There are two kinds of people in this world: those who believe there are two kinds of people in this world and those who are smart enough to know better."
- The Authoritative and Inspired Words of Tom Robbins, from his book: Still Life with Woodpecker
20 Jun 14
Originally posted by CalJustThat reply has just brilliantly identified which group you are in to all the people who are in the other group!
I think you are confusing "binary" with "decimal".
As far as I recall, "binary" always refers to two, i.e. "either/or".
But then, none of us is perfect!
😀
--- Penguin
20 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonship
Hi sonship, I would like to take this discussion a little further, on the basis of establishing what common ground we have and where we differ.
Then, having identified where we disagree, we can decide to leave it there, or to pursue further the reasons for this disagreement. But rest assured (as i have now said repeatedly) that I am not out to change your opinion, or to proclaim that you are wrong, but if anything, only to germinate the idea in your mind that just maybe there ARE other valid opinions out there. Fair enough?
Item 1.
God wants to have fellowship with all his creation. He desires that NOBODY be lost, but that ALL should come to salvation.
I'm sure you also know the chapter and verse for this fact.
Item 2
God has made provision for this reconciliation and fellowship through Jesus Christ
OK so far?
Item 3
Yet this provision is most definitely a Free Gift, "not of works, lest any man should boast"
In other scriptures we are reminded that "he has chosen us, not we have chosen him". He has always taken the initiative.
It is maybe at this point that disagreements start to arise, and the "grace vs works" debate probably starts here. There IS the scripture that says "whosoever calls on the Lord shall be saved" as well as "chose ye this day whom ye shall serve" and others. That is a complicated debate on its own. But let's leave that be for the moment, and just continue with the current train of thought.
So God wants us to be saved, and we have to make choices.
This is where the problem starts to impact this present discussion, which is about WHAT SHOULD BE THE LEGITIMATE AND FAIR RESULT OF A WRONG CHOICE and WHAT, IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, AFFECTS THAT CHOICE WHICH WE MUST MAKE?
Do you agree at least so far?
Maybe it would be a good idea to stop right here and hear if you agree, before we take this thought process any further.
CJ
PS: Since this is actually GB's thread, feel free to join in. If yes, do you agree so far as well?
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20 Jun 14
Originally posted by CalJustHi,
Then, having identified where we disagree, we can decide to leave it there,
I believe that Jesus is Lord of all. He is God become a man.
He came not only to save us but to make us like Himself.
That is men and women mingled with God for a corporate expression for God's glory and our enjoyment for eternity.
or to pursue further the reasons for this disagreement. But rest assured (as i have now said repeatedly) that I am not out to change your opinion, or to proclaim that you are wrong, but if anything, only to germinate the idea in your mind that just maybe there ARE other valid opinions out there. Fair enough?
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; But when that which is complete comes, that which is in part will be rendered useless." (1 Cor. 13:9,10)
Of course as the Bible says, I know in part and prophesy in part.
I believe the word of God is infallible.
I do not believe that all my interpretations of Scripture's meaning are infallible.
Item 1.
God wants to have fellowship with all his creation. He desires that NOBODY be lost, but that ALL should come to salvation.
But He will not coerce His will upon those of His creation who really do not want anything to do with Him.
A small person forces himself upon you to make you accept him.
God is the greatest and the Most High.
If some of His creatures really do not want to have anything to do with Him, He will not coerce Himself usurping their will.
I'm sure you also know the chapter and verse for this fact.
Item 2
God has made provision for this reconciliation and fellowship through Jesus Christ
OK so far?
" ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and has put in us the word of reconciliation. On behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God." ( 2 Cor. 5:19,20)
Item 3
Yet this provision is most definitely a Free Gift, "not of works, lest any man should boast"
In other scriptures we are reminded that "he has chosen us, not we have chosen him". He has always taken the initiative.
John 15:16 ?
Skipping down a little ...
So God wants us to be saved, and we have to make choices.
This is where the problem starts to impact this present discussion, which is about WHAT SHOULD BE THE LEGITIMATE AND FAIR RESULT OF A WRONG CHOICE and WHAT, IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, AFFECTS THAT CHOICE WHICH WE MUST MAKE?
Do you agree at least so far?
Maybe it would be a good idea to stop right here and hear if you agree, before we take this thought process any further.
CJ
PS: Since this is actually GB's thread, feel free to join in. If yes, do you agree so far as well?
I think the most important thing is "What Has God Said ? "
Of secondary importance is "Do I Like What God Has Said ?"
I do not say it is of no importance.
I do say it is of secondary importance.
I may not like what God has said.
I may find some paradoxes in reconciling seemingly contradictory utterances in the Bible.
But because God has uttered them both, I let myself believe them both.
I do not think I am obligated to solve every paradox in the divine revelation of the 66 books of the Bible.
While it is a boast of man to rid out all contradiction, tracing to one common principle contradictory truths, some things will just have to wait until some future time for me to fully be able to comprehend. That is how they both could work together.
It seems to me that in His foreknowledge God knew that some of His creatures would not want to have anything to do with Him. In His wisdom He seems to have prepared all of these ones to be headed up and led by ONE leader - the Anointed Cherub who became Satan.
It seems that Satan serves the purpose of being one grand reservoir God allowed to come into existence, to contain all the various shades of rebellion against God. They were all subsumed up in one grand reservoir containing the ultimate rebel Satan and all others of angels, and other creatures including mankind, who want to follow a similar path - that renouncing the Most High God.
It seems to me that in His wisdom, God took Time to deal with ALL the rebellion of His creatures in ONE scheme. And that after it is dealt with, for eternity, there will be no other such rebellion.
Lately, I considered this passage from Paul -
"And what if God, wishing to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory, ..." (Romans 9:22,23)
The context was the hardening of Pharoah's heart by God in order to make manifest His power in Moses and the Exodus.
God's eternal purpose is not merely to save sinners. Before the matter of sin came into existence, God has a plan to reveal the riches of His glory upon and in vessels of His mercy - they would be sons of God. That is making visible in the universe the glory of the unseen and uncreated Divine Being.
Foreknowing that some of His creatures would want to rebel against their Creator and have nothing to do with God's administration, God prepared a grand repository to hold all of the possible rebellion, rejection, contrariness of will against His eternal purpose. Satan became the once and for all grand leader of all such rebels.
Thank God some of us have been saved from the kingdom of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
20 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipI can see now that this is not going to work....
I believe that Jesus is Lord of all. He is God become a man.
He came not only to save us but to make us like Himself.
That is men and women mingled with God for a corporate expression for God's glory and our enjoyment for eternity.
[quote]
or to pursue further the reasons for this disagreement. But rest assured (as i have now said repeatedly) t ...[text shortened]... been saved from the kingdom of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
I was sort of hoping that you would say: "Yes, I agree with you so far on Items 1 - 3" - and then proceed from there to the next step, or "No, I don't agree with Item x" and then back up a little.
But clearly you want to cover all the doctrines of Christianity in one fell swoop, so let's just abandon my idea.
Thanks.
🙁
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20 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJustI would rather see what corner you wish to paint me into before I stand on a certain spot.
I can see now that this is not going to work....
I was sort of hoping that you would say: "Yes, I agree with you so far on Items 1 - 3" - and then proceed from there to the next step, or "No, I don't agree with Item x" and then back up a little.
But clearly you want to cover all the doctrines of Christianity in one fell swoop, so let's just abandon my idea.
Thanks.
🙁
I had no major problem with what you wrote so far.
But if it doesn't work for you, then, we stop.
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20 Jun 14
1 edit
Brother Grampy,
Concerning some having an everlasting life who are not born again, as I wrote. You said "verses ?".
I would like to proceed by asking your view of some reasoning about certain Bible passages. Then maybe you will see yourself how I could say this. Maybe not also.
What do you think? When the word of God says of the sons of God - "and they shall reign forever and ever." (Rev. 22:5)
Over who do you think these sons of God will reign over forever and ever?
Do you believe that we will reign over each other ?
21 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonship2003, 2010 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries 7 "The Lord has built a city for His heavenly people (John 14:1-3; Heb. 11:16). The Lord is the architect and builder of this city (Heb. 11:10). This city is called the New Jerusalem, the city of the living God (Heb. 12:22). It is a literal city and the Word of God describes it in detail. The believer is to diligently seek or desire for the time when he will live in the New Jerusalem (Heb. 13:14).
Brother Grampy,
Concerning some having an everlasting life who are not born again, as I wrote. You said "verses ?".
I would like to proceed by asking your view of some reasoning about certain Bible passages. Then maybe you will see yourself how I could say this. Maybe not also.
What do you think? When the word of God says of the sons of God ...[text shortened]... s of God will reign over forever and ever?
Do you believe that we will reign over each other ?
Church age believers who are winners in time will have their names recorded in its permanent historical record section and will have their names permanently inscribed upon the pillars of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12a). The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God (Rev. 3:12b; 21:2, 10). It is called the “holy city” because no unrighteousness or evil will be allowed in it for all eternity (Rev. 21:2a, 8, 27). It will be a city of integrity and virtue.
Revelation 22:1, “Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true’; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. 7 And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.’ 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he said to me, ‘Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.’” (NASU) http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/eschatology/new_earth.pdf
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." / Reference is to Church Age Believers in Christ.
21 Jun 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThis looks like an attempt at a smoke screen to me.
2003, 2010 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries 7 "The Lord has built a city for His heavenly people (John 14:1-3; Heb. 11:16). The Lord is the architect and builder of this city (Heb. 11:10). This city is called the New Jerusalem, the city of the living God (Heb. 12:22). It is a literal city and the Word of God describes it in detail. The believer ...[text shortened]... l be like him; for we shall see him as he is." / Reference is to Church Age Believers in Christ.
21 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJustSonship is a selfish man to discuss these matters with. That stems from his arrogance. Notice how he treats you v how he addresses 'brother Grampy Bobby'.
I can see now that this is not going to work....
I was sort of hoping that you would say: "Yes, I agree with you so far on Items 1 - 3" - and then proceed from there to the next step, or "No, I don't agree with Item x" and then back up a little.
But clearly you want to cover all the doctrines of Christianity in one fell swoop, so let's just abandon my idea.
Thanks.
🙁
You say "Blah, blah."
And he replies with " Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah .
You believe in what Christ and the Apostles preached about love and the following of Christ commandments. Sonship and his gang believe in accepting Christ with their mouth as the solo requirement for eternal life. Anything else according to them .. like love you fellow man .. is of no value.
You, me, Pudgenik and a couple others are not part of Gods Kingdom as Sonship constant implies. Those who repeat the commandments of Christ are constantly sidelined by the socalled Christian community.
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21 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThankyou Grampy,
But the question I had for you was over whom do you believe the sons of God will reign when they reign forever and ever.
" ... and they will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 22:5b)
I will accept as a perfectly legitimate reply - "I don't know".
I will accept as a perfectly respectable reply - "I am not sure."
I will accept as a reply that some respected teacher/pastor has this to say about that particular point.
But specifically I would like your reply on WHO are those reigned OVER forever and ever by the sons of God mentioned in Revelation 22:5?
If you never thought about it, perhaps now is a time to think about it.
What's you reply ?