Evidence for God?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Ah, so you are admitting there is a probability that the universe, the Earth and life here could have come from natural forces not needing a deity. Good to know that.

No, I did not say that. I was talking about the calculated probability factors. Of course, man has left a lot uncalculate due to his lack of knowledged. But I would bet my life on it that the probability is that God did it.

The Instructor

Originally posted by sonhouse
Don't you think it would be a stupid irresponsible god to have designed humans in such a way as to reproduce like rabbits now approaching 8 billion? And another doubling would tax the resources of the entire planet? Your alleged infinite power god would have seen the results of its creation from day one to today and couldn't help noticing how we are screwin ...[text shortened]... like totally involved with a few tribes in the desert 3000 years ago but a no show ever since?

Answer my question, I'll answer yours.
Kelly

Originally posted by RJHinds
No, I did not say that. I was talking about the calculated probability factors. Of course, man has left a lot uncalculate due to his lack of knowledged. But I would bet my life on it that the probability is that God did it.

The Instructor

I don't think he was saying you believe it is probable, just that there is a probability. It may be a probability of 1x10^-1000000 in your eyes but you do admit there is a possibility that it just happened naturally.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Answer my question, I'll answer yours.
Kelly

I assume by your question, you mean the one in this post

Not asking you about what I believe.
I'm asking if you can accept any evidence for God?
What I believe rests just with me.
I'm sure "God" could mean something else to one over the another, for
example some used to worship the sun, others pieces of wood, you can
see the sun and handle the wood.
The sun and wood would be what I suppose gods, which are different than
God.
Kelly

In which case, speaking for myself, there probably are circumstances and events that, if they came about, would convince me. An example might be if the stars re-arranged themselves overnight into new patterns, and this was verified by independent observers. If these patterns arranged themselves into messages in all current terrestrial languages, I'd be pretty convinced.

I know this is not Sonhouse's response but it is mine and I would also like to see your answer to his question.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
I assume by your question, you mean the one in this post

[i]Not asking you about what I believe.
[b]I'm asking if you can accept any evidence for God?
What I believe rests just with me.
I'm sure "God" could mean something else to one over the another, for
example some used to worship the sun, others pieces of wood, you can
see the sun and handle ...[text shortened]... e but it is mine and I would also like to see your answer to his question.

--- Penguin.[/b]

If he answers me you'll see it.
Kelly

Originally posted by Penguin
I assume by your question, you mean the one in this post

[i]Not asking you about what I believe.
[b]I'm asking if you can accept any evidence for God?
What I believe rests just with me.
I'm sure "God" could mean something else to one over the another, for
example some used to worship the sun, others pieces of wood, you can
see the sun and handle ...[text shortened]... e but it is mine and I would also like to see your answer to his question.

--- Penguin.[/b]

God would not do that for me or anyone I know. What makes you think you are so much better than the rest of us that God has to show a special sign to you. You must be going out of your mind. Get real.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
This just shows that you have been deceived. All you have to do is to honestly use your intelligence to see through the deception. Then you will have reason to believe in God.

The Instructor

i do honestly use my "intelligence". there is no deception in my words, as i try to constantly express myself as coherently as possible, and who said i don't have a reason to believe in god?!

i think you misread my post 😛

Originally posted by RJHinds
God would not do that for me or anyone I know. What makes you think you are so much better than the rest of us that God has to show a special sign to you. You must be going out of your mind. Get real.

The Instructor

I am not saying he would or should move the stars just for me.

The question was, 'what evidence would convince me of the existence of a supernatural God'. This, by definition, is an extra-ordinary claim and I feel it would need extra-ordinary evidence. That evidence would need to be something independently verifiable and violating fundamental laws of physics as we currently understand them. It has to be something that cannot be explained by natural processes.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
I am not saying he would or should move the stars just for me.

The question was, 'what evidence would convince me of the existence of a supernatural God'. This, by definition, is an extra-ordinary claim and I feel it would need extra-ordinary evidence. That evidence would need to be something independently verifiable and violating fundamental laws of phys ...[text shortened]... nd them. It has to be something that cannot be explained by natural processes.

--- Penguin.

How do you explain something like the Shroud of Turin that has defied natural scientific explanation? How do you explain Israel becoming a nation and speaking the Hebrew language again after nearly 2,OOO years as foretold in the Holy Bible. How do you explain Israel becoming the most prosperous nation in the middle eastern region in such a sort time. These things are extra-ordinary things that have been verified.

The Instructor

Originally posted by Penguin
I am not saying he would or should move the stars just for me.

The question was, 'what evidence would convince me of the existence of a supernatural God'. This, by definition, is an extra-ordinary claim and I feel it would need extra-ordinary evidence. That evidence would need to be something independently verifiable and violating fundamental laws of phys ...[text shortened]... nd them. It has to be something that cannot be explained by natural processes.

--- Penguin.

Like going from non living material to life and mutating into what we see
today? If you can believe what those supposedly where, you could find
a reason to explain the stars moving.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So you are predisposed to reject anything in favor of some natural way
to explain things outside of God or gods being responsible?
Kelly

So you think it is foolish just to want evidence I can see, hear or feel? It is foolish to not just trust in the theologians when they say have faith?

Originally posted by Penguin
In which case, speaking for myself, there probably are circumstances and events that, if they came about, would convince me. An example might be if the stars re-arranged themselves overnight into new patterns, and this was verified by independent observers. If these patterns arranged themselves into messages in all current terrestrial languages, I'd be pretty convinced.

--- Penguin.

Well, the man said evidence, not proof.

Enough evidence to bring a case to trial may or may not be enough to prove a man's guilt, depending on the jury hearing the case, but it's certainly enough to begin piecing it together and start asking questions.

For me, most of the natural world (yes, even though I know the physics involved in maintaining it) suffices for 'evidence of God'. The evidence is in His creation. Physics and natural laws mean that His creation goes on operating as it was designed all by itself, at least as long as we don't screw it up with radiation or pollution (mercury in fish) or causing massive die-offs or causing certain key species to stop reproducing. I've stated many times in this very forum that there cannot be 'proof' of God. If there was proof, then why would there be a reason for free will? Man must choose his side, and choose wisely, and this is the final exam. We cannot be given the answers via proof or it negates the whole purpose of free will. We can, however, be given enough evidence to cause us to look into the matter further and come to our own decision based on faith.

So that's my answer. There's evidence aplenty. All of creation is stuffed with it. But there's not a speck of proof to be found, though. If you're looking to bend the evidence to fit your will, then you're not giving the evidence an honest chance to convince you. But no matter how hard you try, evidence for or against God cannot be turned into incontrovertible proof.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, the man said evidence, not proof.

Enough evidence to bring a case to trial may or may not be enough to prove a man's guilt, depending on the jury hearing the case, but it's certainly enough to begin piecing it together and start asking questions.

For me, most of the natural world (yes, even though I know the physics involved in maintaining it) s ...[text shortened]... you try, evidence for or against God cannot be turned into incontrovertible proof.

Well the stars moving in this way is also not proof, it may be done by some hyper-advanced civilization who have evolved the same way we did. However, it would be pretty extraordinary evidence, which is what I would need.

The brute fact of the universe does not necessarily point to any intelligence and certainly does not point to any supernatural deity.

Your argument for the need for doubt in order to provide the possibility of free will also does not hold water: you believe that after this life, at least some of us will wind up in heaven yes? In heaven, is there free will? Is there proof of god?
If there is no free will in heaven, then why is it so precious here? If there is no prof of god then it is unlike any description of heaven than I have ever heard before. Likewise if evil exists in heaven.

I also don't really believe that the free will concept subscribed to by the religious really exists even in the real world.

So I can see nothing preventing an omnipotent, loving deity from providing such extraordinary evidence of its existence.

---- penguin.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, the man said evidence, not proof.

Enough evidence to bring a case to trial may or may not be enough to prove a man's guilt, depending on the jury hearing the case, but it's certainly enough to begin piecing it together and start asking questions.

For me, most of the natural world (yes, even though I know the physics involved in maintaining it) s ...[text shortened]... you try, evidence for or against God cannot be turned into incontrovertible proof.

Man must choose his side, and choose wisely, and this is the final exam.

Do you allow that some people will choose wrongly—but in all honesty, and to the best of their knowledge, intelligence and integrity?

Originally posted by Penguin
I don't think he was saying you believe it is probable, just that there is a probability. It may be a probability of 1x10^-1000000 in your eyes but you do admit there is a possibility that it just happened naturally.

--- Penguin.

No, I believe the only reasonable probability is that God made it happen. One could make up a case that the purple people eater or some other man-imagined monster made it, but those probabilities are too small to calculate or consider. So that leaves me only one choice. GOD DID IT.

The Instructor