Originally posted by LangtreeThe Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics states:
Entropy is a universal and irreversible law, this has been commom knowledge for better than 50 years. Sydney Harris, 1984, wrote, "How can the forces of biological development and the forces of physical degeneration be operating at cross ...[text shortened]... empt to penetrate this riddle. I can only pose the question ..."
If two systems are in thermal equilibrium with a third system, then they must be in thermal equilibrium with each other.
The Combined Law of Thermodynamics :
For energy E, temperature T, pressure P, and volume V, entropy S
dE -T dS +P dV <= 0
That's pretty simple isn't it?
if not 1st Law:
setting : work W, heat Q
dE=dQ-dW
and a reversible process :
dE= T dS - P dV
second Law:
dQ<= T dS
third Law:
as T tends to 0 , dS tends to 0
in other words: entropy has reached it's limit when temperture drops to absolute zero.
edit : my math is far better than my typing "of" is usually "og" in an unedited post
Originally posted by LangtreeDoctored pictures? Can you provide links to what you're talking about? I was unaware of this.
You ask me to study the subject? That is the advice you need to give some of(if not all) your evolutionary collegues. Some of your bright biologists have made some pretty colossal errors themselves. For example PiltdownMan, Java Man, Peking Man, Nebraska Man, Neanderthal Man. Ernest Haeckel, doctored pictures of embroys to prove human beings went thro ...[text shortened]... e still pathetically weak in your knowledge of evolution. I think you need to hide for awhile.
Evolutionary biologists, said that the coccyx was a vestigal organ, a tail. But, without it a human being can't stand upright.
If this is true (and I think it is), the evolutionary explanation for the origin of the coccyx is not in conflict with the role it serves in humans now. This would be an example of exaptation. The different roles of the yolk sac in mammals and birds likewise are not in conflict with evolutionary theory that says they came from the same origin; exaptation or divergent evolution of some form explain this. By the way, where do birds get their first red blood cells?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThat you can't stand upright without your coccyx will be news to the people who have had it surgically removed.
Doctored pictures? Can you provide links to what you're talking about? I was unaware of this.
[b]Evolutionary biologists, said that the coccyx was a vestigal organ, a tail. But, without it a human being can't stand upright.
If this is true (and I think it is), the evolutionary explanation for the origin of the coccyx is not in conflict wi ...[text shortened]... of some form explain this. By the way, where do birds get their first red blood cells?
[/b]
http://www.coccyx.org/treatmen/ectomy.htm
Although the procedure does sometimes have the unpleasant side effect of making your a** fall off!
Langtree -
Please elaborate on "the transitional forms that should appear sometime before the Cambrian" and the "systematic gaps".
Is there a reason you brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics?
Since we live in an open system, Entropy always increases.
I am not sure what you mean. Entropy does not always increase in open systems. It always increases in closed systems.
The Laws of Thermodynamics run contrary to evolution.
No they don't.
Evolution occurs too slowly in any one life time to be documented.
That's not true. You are not using the term 'evolution' accurately, which is a typical way in which creationists mischaracterize the TOE. Some creationists do this out of ignorance, and some do it to manipulate people into believing them through deception.
How does evolution explain the law of entropy?
It does not. It doesn't need to. However I think what you mean is 'how do evolutionists explain how living systems can lose entropy over evolutionary time when the 2nd Law exists'. The answer is that living systems are open systems, to which the 2nd Law does not apply.
Where are the transitional forms? If there were any we would have discovered them by now, almost 150 years after Charles Darwin stated there should be.
Well, there are quite a lot. Limnoscelis and tseajaia are transitional forms between the first amphibians and the first reptiles for example. Why do you think there are no transitional forms?
If evolution is true, then defining characteristic of animal and plants should be less distinct.
I don't think this is true. Why do you say this?
Why are languages becoming less complex.
This has nothing to do with biological evolution, though language probably evolves in a similar way. By the way, how did you measure 'complexity' such that you make the claim that languages are becoming less complex?
Fossilization, occurs rapidly, so if evolution were true, really there should be any fossils.
Your English is very poor here. There are fossils, so this supports evolution according to what you said. (If evolution, then there should be fossils).
Haeckel's evolutionary recapitulation theory stated, The gill slits in the unborn fetus were once considered a throwback to our fish heritage, only later it was discovered they are the early forms of the vocal cords.
This is another example of exaptation, which is an evolutionary concept. There's no problem here.
Natural selection only occurs within kinds;
What's a 'kind'? What criteria do you use to determine if two organisms are the same 'kind' or not?
Random processes governed by chance don't produce complex designs
How do you know this?
I already have permission to give equal time to creationism and evolution
You do? Is that legal? Not that I necessarily have a problem with it.
It requires more faith to believe in evolution.
Nope.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIn 1987, The US Supreme Court in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard ruled that a Louisiana law requiring creation "science" be taught along with the TOE was an unconstitutional attempt to establish a religion. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=482&invol=578. I have no doubt that a school policy requiring the same thing would be considered state action in violation of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause as well. Langtree's little plan is illegal, and having someone of his "knowledge" teach kids science at all borders on child abuse.
Langtree -
Please elaborate on "the transitional forms that should appear sometime before the Cambrian" and the "systematic gaps".
Is there a reason you brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics?
[b]Since we live in an open system, Entropy always increases.
I am not sure what you mean. Entropy does not always increase in o ...[text shortened]... arily have a problem with it.
It requires more faith to believe in evolution.
Nope.[/b]
Originally posted by AThousandYoungOk do you have any documented transitionals for the human species?
Langtree -
Please elaborate on "the transitional forms that should appear sometime before the Cambrian" and the "systematic gaps".
Is there a reason you brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics?
[b]Since we live in an open system, Entropy always increases.
I am not sure what you mean. Entropy does not always increase in o ...[text shortened]... arily have a problem with it.
It requires more faith to believe in evolution.
Nope.[/b]
Originally posted by LangtreeYou are a liar !
I'm not trying to grandstand, though it may not be a bad idea. How is my approach to science distorted? You haven't answered any of my questions.
That proves that your understanding of the issue is lacking.
It's as simple as that.
The issue is just what depths of deception are creationists willing to sink to.
Having seen it first hand in this forum, it's clear to me that none of you have as much intregrity as God gave a gnat.
The few that are exceptions to that are not the same as the pack of ignorant liars that push "creation science".
My advice to you is : puke up that camel you've swallowed, it's pooping on your brain.
Departamento de Paleobiologia, Museo Nacional de Ciencias Naturales, Jose G. Abascal 2, Madrid, 28006, Spain. arg@pinar1.csic.es
Metric and shape features of the Lower Pleistocene mandibular specimen ATD605 from the level 6 of Gran Dolina site (Atapuerca, Spain) are compared with a large sample of fossil hominid mandibles. The analysis shows that ATD6-5 displays a generalized morphology largely shared with both African and European Lower and Middle Pleistocene samples. However, distinctive African traits, such as corpus robustness and strong alveolar prominence, are absent in the Gran Dolina specimen. At the same time, none of the apomorphic features that characterize Middle and early Upper Pleistocene European hominids can be recognized in ATD6-5. Finally, the Gran Dolina specimen displays a remarkable position of the mylohyoid groove, only comparable to that found in immature specimens of Homo ergaster, and very rarely in adult H. sapiens. The morphology of ATD6-5 supports the hypothesis of an African origin for the first Europeans with subsequent phylogenetic continuity with Middle Pleistocene populations in Europe. These findings are consistent with H. antecessor being the last common ancestor of Neandertals and H. sapiens. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10497000&dopt=Abstract
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI think creationists are confusing the thermodynamic term"open system" with the Cosmological term "open universe".
Langtree -
Please elaborate on "the transitional forms that should appear sometime before the Cambrian" and the "systematic gaps".
Is there a reason you brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics?
[b]Since we live in an open system, Entropy always increases.
I am not sure what you mean. Entropy does not always increase in o ...[text shortened]... arily have a problem with it.
It requires more faith to believe in evolution.
Nope.[/b]
the former follows+ the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics while the latter is a measure of"curvature " of the universe and has an event horizon with the implication of a finite Hawking Temperture (3rd Law)
however the 3rd Law states: It is impossible to lower the temperature T of a system to zero through any physical process.
also I am getting close to Quantum Relativity here and I don't want to get into the problems that an event horizon has with the S-Matrix,,,I haven't enough aspirin to help force me through the math.
Originally posted by KneverKnightThe fundamental characteristic that bonds all crackpots is they usually know more about the science the are pottying on, than the general public and make plausable sounding arguments. Most of them actually believe the junk science they're spewing.
Creationists have never heard of photosynthesis and the sun supplying energy to our locality to enable plants to turn water into "stuff."
My god, this "thermodynamic" stuff is just crapola.
No wonder the ancients worshipped the sun.
Sooner or later scientists expose the true nature of this junk science, but in the case of "creation science" the crackpots have a ready made following of wishful thinkers.
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The response to my plans for my SCIENCE class in September was interesting. To insure there was no misunderstanding. First, I am displaying this thread and will share it with all the responses, to include my error. Second, I am presenting both sides of the story. Evolution and Creation, both sides will get equal time. My presentation will be strictly objective. (Something an evolutionist is incapable of during as evidenced by their responses) The students will be allowed to evaluate and choose without coercion. In addition, I will give a chapter review test, and solicit responses from the class, concerning their thought of the presentation. They will not be penalized for their views, all the students will be required to write a follow up paper for classroom presentation. This will insure they understand their position. It has been interesting the responses I received, it only shows that evolutionist want to corner the classroom and minds of students. You hurled insults and berated the idea. Well, that goes to show who is truly closed minded, unwillingness to allow fair education is about as closed minded as one can get. A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it is open. I know I was an Air Borne Ranger, in 5th Special Forces Group, John F. Kennedy Center for Special Operations and Warfare, Ft. Bragg, N.C.