Faith

Originally posted by bbarr
Aristophanes didn't recount Socrates' life, he only caricatured him (and sophistry in general) in The Clouds.

Maybe Jesus could have done with an Aristophanes.

Originally posted by whodey
Of coarse there are explanations of why the religion of the God of Abraham has survived as a viable religion of today and explanations as to why the religious texts have survived etc. For example, there are historical reasons as to why religious texts have survived such as monks writing down and preserving them in out of the way places etc. However, what I smoking. That is, of coarse, while I bang my head as hard as I can into the nearest wall. 🙄

Hinduism
Began: 2500 BCE or earlier. It is the oldest of the world's living religions.

Zoroastrianism
Began: ca. 1400 BCE-1000 BCE

Judaism
Began: ca. 1400 BCE-500 BCE

Buddhism
Began: 550 BCE

Confucianism
Began: 520 BCE

Jainism
Began: 500 BCE

Taoism
Began: Commented on in the DaoDeJing c. 500 BCE, but a continuiation of earlier beliefs

Christianity
Began: 27 CE

Islam
Began: 622 CE

Shintoism
Began: formalised in 712 CE, although continuation of earlier beliefs

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_by_age

This list of the ten oldest of the World's existing religions will clearly demonstrate that your Abrahamic religions, and christianity especially, are nothing quite as special as you would like to believe. There are six extant non-Abrahamic religions that predate christianity. In fact, two thirds of your Abrahamic triad are quite modern in comparison to many of the others. And it should be noted that the oldest of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, has a scant 15 million adherents worldwide. In the grand scheme of things, Islam, being founded at the late date of 622, has a pedigree scarcely more impressive than Scientology.

The fact that Christianity and Islam are two of the largest religions around has more to do with them being the most aggressively evangelical religions than it does with anything else. If you convert people at the point of a sword for centuries, then you tend to end up with a few converts.

If many orthodox christian texts survive to this day, while others do not, it is precisely because christians burned the books of the opposition. The burning of the library of Alexandria, as you say, comes to mind. The orthodox christians were great destroyers of so called 'heretical' religious manuscripts. So our access to many of the earliest heretical christian sects is confined to a few chance discoveries, such as the Nag Hammadi library.

Again, as for prophecies, I will not waste my time on such nonsense. If you want to have an intelligent discussion, then fine. But if you want to prattle on about "prophesy" then I'll just heap abuse upon you and be done with it. Suffice it to say that Christ fulfilled no prophecies and that there are no prophecies taking shape today. Perhaps you should be reading some more credible sources and a little less biblical propaganda.

So in conclusion, the probability of an ancient religion, its texts, and its people surviving to the present day is quite good without having to resort to a god to complicate the problem. All ten of the religions on the list above bear this out rather convincingly. All ten are ancient (some more so than others). Most have texts that date to antiquity. And, not surprisingly, their "people" all continue to survive. There's nothing at all remarkable about it, and certainly nothing that requires "god" as an explanation.

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, if (for example) there were a mass extinction all the Christians, you would believe that the God
of Christianity would be dead as well? You would accept this as testament to the failure of the
truth of Christianity?!?

Nemesio

Likewise, I would like to know if whodey thinks that Ra, Thor and Zeus were all once real gods, who only died because they fell by the wayside. Also, I wonder if he thinks that because people used to believe the earth was flat, that it actually was flat, and that it only became a sphere once people began to believe it was a sphere. Presumably if people begin to believe the earth is a cube, then it will become so.

Originally posted by rwingett
Hinduism
Began: 2500 BCE or earlier. It is the oldest of the world's living religions.

Zoroastrianism
Began: ca. 1400 BCE-1000 BCE

Judaism
Began: ca. 1400 BCE-500 BCE

Buddhism
Began: 550 BCE

Confucianism
Began: 520 BCE

Jainism
Began: 500 BCE

Taoism
Began: Commented on in the DaoDeJing c. 500 BCE, but a continuiation of earlier belie ...[text shortened]... ll remarkable about it, and certainly nothing that requires "god" as an explanation.

You are correct in that Hinduism predates Judism, however, it does so in historical evidence only. Just because the historical evidence is not there, it in no way proves that it predates the God of the Bible. In fact, the Bible claims to have worked through only a handfull of men immediatly after the fall of man, therefore, it only makes since that other religions came to historical prominence before the small number of followers of Judism immediatly after the fall of man.

You are also correct in that both Christianity and Islam are evangelical religions and have a great deal to do with their success. It is interesting to note, however, that Judism is not. Why then has this survived? In fact, I find it odd that the Jewish people have survived at all in light of historical antisemitism which I have talked about before in other threads. For me such persecution is unparelleled and even fortold in the Bible. Furthermore, how has such a people then able to reform a country in modern times in light of such persecution that was fortold to happen in the Old Testament? For me, it is akin to the ancient nation of Babylon reforming its secular empire and then reestablishing worship within its empire of its ancient gods. For the Bible to be wrong, all one need do is destroy the Jewish people and/or nation. God knows many have tried in the past, but you know what.....there still here. Not only that, the Zionist nation continues to be a focal point in terms of world events that continues today.

It does strike me odd, however, that the ancient religions you mention seem to be all far eastern in origin except for the God of the Bible. What is your speculation as to why?

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, if (for example) there were a mass extinction all the Christians, you would believe that the God
of Christianity would be dead as well? You would accept this as testament to the failure of the
truth of Christianity?!?

Nemesio

All need be done to discredit the God of Bible is to destroy the nation of Israel and along with it the Jewish people thus nullifying end time prophesies concerning the nation of Israel. Not to worry, however, many are at work today to do just that.

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, if (for example) there were a mass extinction all the Christians, you would believe that the God
of Christianity would be dead as well? You would accept this as testament to the failure of the
truth of Christianity?!?

Nemesio

I would say that if the one and true God were absent from the lives of at least one man then that God would essentially be dead as far as mankind is concerned even if he existed despite this fact.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Some religion had to be the most popular worldwide. I doubt Christianity was until the last century (if then) and doubt whether it will be in the next.

One reason why some religious texts didn't survive is because Christians destroyed them and killed the believers in them. I suppose God helped them do this.

Hinduism existed fo vague so that somebody or another has said we were in the last days for about oh, 2000 years.

I don't view Christianity as ever having been the dominant religion of men. Many of your twisted examples of so called Christians come to mind. Just because a group calls themselves "Christian" in no way means they are so. Despite this, however, the message of the good news has reached the entire globe.

Originally posted by rwingett
Likewise, I would like to know if whodey thinks that Ra, Thor and Zeus were all once real gods, who only died because they fell by the wayside. Also, I wonder if he thinks that because people used to believe the earth was flat, that it actually was flat, and that it only became a sphere once people began to believe it was a sphere. Presumably if people begin to believe the earth is a cube, then it will become so.

Of coarse not. The fact that they are not worshiped today, however, is evidence that they were never true gods to begin with.

Originally posted by no1marauder
the Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah of the OT. And the prophecies regarding the second coming are sufficiently vague so that somebody or another has said we were in the last days for about oh, 2000 years.[/b]

Just as the Bible has prophesied.

Originally posted by whodey
You are correct in that Hinduism predates Judism, however, it does so in historical evidence only. Just because the historical evidence is not there, it in no way proves that it predates the God of the Bible. In fact, the Bible claims to have worked through only a handfull of men immediatly after the fall of man, therefore, it only makes since that other re ...[text shortened]... all far eastern in origin except for the God of the Bible. What is your speculation as to why?

So you start off by using historical evidence to back up your point, but when the evidence is instead shown to contradict your point, it now becomes irrelevant. Very convenient. Instead, once again, you fall back on the bible as being your sole source of support. I'm sure the pitfalls of circular reasoning have been brought to your attention before, so I will not belabor the point here. Suffice it to say that your newly revealed interpretation of religious history is rather dubious, even for many christians, I'm sure.

Why has Judaism survived against tough odds? Probably for the same reason that Zoroastrianism has managed to survive. But the establishment of the modern state of Israel has more to do with the Balfour Declaration than it does with the Old Testament. And I seriously doubt that destroying the Jewish people and/or nation would be sufficient to prove the bible wrong (if only it were that simple). You'd just put a new spin on current events to make them fit into your apocalyptic world view.

There are a number of possibilities as to why 6 of the 8 oldest extant religions are centered primarily in the east. One would possibly be that since christianity ruthlessly destroyed any opposition in the west, any diverging opinions would necessarily be found in the east. Some of the early christian sects had a much greater "eastern" sensibility to them. If they had triumphed, instead of the proto-orthodox christians, then the east/west schism that we see today would either be much less pronounced, or perhaps not exist at all.

Originally posted by whodey
Of coarse not. The fact that they are not worshiped today, however, is evidence that they were never true gods to begin with.

That is completely ridiculous. Truth is not decided by a majority vote. Are you saying that every religion that is worshipped today is true? Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism, Judaism, Animism, are all equally true because they have people who currently believe them? If people quit worshipping Christ would that mean christianity was never true, or that it currently isn't true? I ask again, is the earth a sphere because people believe it's a sphere, or is it a sphere regardless of what people believe?

Originally posted by whodey
I don't view Christianity as ever having been the dominant religion of men. Many of your twisted examples of so called Christians come to mind. Just because a group calls themselves "Christian" in no way means they are so. Despite this, however, the message of the good news has reached the entire globe.

33% of the people of the world are christian. The second largest religion, Islam, claims 21%. Therefore, your exclusionist interpretation of christianhood notwhithstanding, christianity is the dominant world religion.

Besides, if you claim that a certain percentage of christians are not really 'true christians', then it is equally likely that a comparable percentage of Muslims are not really 'true Muslims.' And so on down the line for every religion. The overall ranking would therefore remain unchanged.

Originally posted by whodey
Just as the Bible has prophesied.

LMAO!!!! What a remarkably stupid argument. The Bible prophesied that nobody would believe the prophecies in the Bible! That is sublime idiocy.

Originally posted by no1marauder
LMAO!!!! What a remarkably stupid argument. The Bible prophesied that nobody would believe the prophecies in the Bible! That is sublime idiocy.

Matthew 21:42 "Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our our eyes?

1 Peter 2:6 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious and he that believes on him will not be confounded."

Originally posted by rwingett
33% of the people of the world are christian. The second largest religion, Islam, claims 21%. Therefore, your exclusionist interpretation of christianhood notwhithstanding, christianity is the dominant world religion.

Besides, if you claim that a certain percentage of christians are not really 'true christians', then it is equally likely that a comparab ...[text shortened]... o on down the line for every religion. The overall ranking would therefore remain unchanged.

I thought we talked about this before. The term "religious" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. For example, some simply are affiliated with religion via church memebership or cultural affiliations and that is all that religion means to them. You might say they are merely guilty by association, not by participation.