03 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsOf course you pick versions that fit your theories, and skip verse 15 so easliy.
Yes it does. Because the following is also said about Jesue:
[b]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of t ...[text shortened]... says "that in all things He may have the preeminence."
Do you know what "preeminence" means?
Try this or another dozen I could post..
Colossians 1:15-18
Good News Translation (GNT)
The Person and Work of Christ
15 Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God ( his Father ). He is the
********first-born********
Son ( of many sons ), superior to all created things ( his Father was not created ). 16 For through him ( Jesus ), God ( his Father) created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him ( Jesus ) and for him ( Jesus). 17 Christ existed before all things ( things created ), and in union with him all things have their proper place. 18 He is the head of his body, the church; he is the source of the body's life. He is the
*******first-born Son*******,
who was raised from death, in order that he alone might ( given to him by his Father ) have the first place in all things.
Now if you can somehow possibly still deny that Jesus is God's
******firstborn********
or first to be created, you are saying the whole bible is a lie...
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by galveston75That is a very weird translation you have there.
Of course you pick versions that fit your theories, and skip verse 15 so easliy.
Try this or another dozen I could post..
Colossians 1:15-18
Good News Translation (GNT)
The Person and Work of Christ
15 Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God ( his Father ). He is the
********first-born********
Son ( ...[text shortened]... s
******firstborn********
or first to be created, you are saying the whole bible is a lie...
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Christ being the Firstborn of all creation (Col. 1:15) does not mean that He is not God the Creator.
Before the foundation of the world, before the creation of any universe God predestinated that He would have some creations as His sons with His life and nature. Because of this intention it was that He created the universe, ie. laid the foundation of the world.
Ephesisans 1:3 - "Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."
Because of the preeminence of Christ in the eternal purpose of God, when He became a man He was the top item of creation, the Firstborn of all creation, having the highest position. Because it is because of Him, before the foundation of creation, God had a good pleasure that through Him to produce many sons.
This plan was in God's heart before He created anything. Whenever Christ became a man, whenever the Word became flesh, He would have the highest and most preeminent place among all created items. It is not dependent upon the timing of items created. It is dependent upon the importance of God becoming incarnated, clothing Himself, the eternal, in His own creation for His plan.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonshiphe is OF the creation, that is a PART OF CREATION.
Christ being the Firstborn of all creation [b](Col. 1:15) does not mean that He is not God the Creator.
Before the foundation of the world, before the creation of any universe God predestinated that He would have some creations as His sons with His life and nature. Because of this intention it was that He created the universe, ie. laid the foundati ...[text shortened]... nce of God becoming incarnated, clothing Himself, the eternal, in His own creation for His plan.[/b]
03 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Why don't you give the ENTIRE definition of the GREEK word "prototokos" and describe for us WHY Paul didn't mean any of the other definitions of "firstborn" except the one YOU assume he meant?
Of course you pick versions that fit your theories, and skip verse 15 so easliy.
Try this or another dozen I could post..
Colossians 1:15-18
Good News Translation (GNT)
The Person and Work of Christ
15 Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God ( his Father ). He is the
********first-born********
Son ( ...[text shortened]... s
******firstborn********
or first to be created, you are saying the whole bible is a lie...
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by galveston75Try reading Col. 1:16-18 too. They reiterate this verse for the slow ones. Jesus is "above all creation". This is what this meaning of "firstborn" or "prototokos" means. If Paul had MEANT "first created" he would have SAID "first created" or "protoktisis". Or will you, like robbie, blow this off as "irrelevant"?
"Christ being the Firstborn of all creation (Col. 1:15) does not mean that He is not God the Creator".
Right..just like anywhere on earth being the firstborn in ones family means that you are also your own father....Lol
By the way, being "The Creator of the Universe" does not mean that he's his own father. How twisted can you make this? How many hoops must you jump through to keep believing in WTO dogma? Talk about making it up as you go along.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDo you not know how "prototokos" is defined?
he is OF the creation, that is a PART OF CREATION.
If not, I'd look it up and try to avoid being seen as ignorant.
He is NOT "OF the creation". Try reading the text. He is "FIRSTBORN of the creation". Of course, this is only relevant if you use the correct meaning of "prototokos", the one Paul meant, instead of assuming he meant something he didn't.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by SuzianneI said that stupid statement because your saying is so irrational.
Try reading Col. 1:16-18 too. They reiterate this verse for the slow ones. Jesus is "above all creation". This is what this meaning of "firstborn" or "prototokos" means. If Paul had MEANT "first created" he would have SAID "first created" or "protoktisis". Or will you, like robbie, blow this off as "irrelevant"?
By the way, being "The C ...[text shortened]... must you jump through to keep believing in WTO dogma? Talk about making it up as you go along.
It's just amazing how you can read a scripture which is crystal clear but yet to make it fit with such things as the trinity, you HAVE to twist and make up stuff to convience yourselves that what a scripture says, it really isn't.
First born in any language on earth means FIRSTBORN as I myself is the firstborn of my parents. NO older brothers and sisters. But when it comes to yours andf RJ's theories you just can't accept the Bible, God's word for what it says in the simplest way because it blows your ideas out of the water...... Unbelieveable.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by SuzianneColossians 1:16-18
Try reading Col. 1:16-18 too. They reiterate this verse for the slow ones. Jesus is "above all creation". This is what this meaning of "firstborn" or "prototokos" means. If Paul had MEANT "first created" he would have SAID "first created" or "protoktisis". Or will you, like robbie, blow this off as "irrelevant"?
By the way, being "The C ...[text shortened]... must you jump through to keep believing in WTO dogma? Talk about making it up as you go along.
16 because by means of him all "other", ( he could not creat himself, his Father did that ) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All "other" things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things ( created ), and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, ( the first to be resurrected to heaven ) so that he might become the one who is first in all things; ( the bible is clear on what power and authority Jesus was GIVEN to him by his Father Jehovah. Jesus never had these powers before he was resurrected back to heaven.)
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by galveston75I knew it but i dared not believe it and I have been proven wrong, i really thought that i could reason, that if i could get them to think about their beliefs and reason upon them they might come to some kind of understanding, if not a compromise, but it was a pointless exercise trying to reason with people who are to all intents and purposes incapable of reason and instead resort to irrelevancy, subterfuge and what can only be regarded as wilful ignorance. I wash my hands in innocency itself and depart in peace knowing that our intent was noble, our motives pure, our logic unassailable, our reasoning solid and our beliefs firmly anchored on the word of God.
I said that stupid statement because your saying is so irrational.
It's just amazing how you can read a scripture which is crystal clear but yet to make it fit with such things as the trinity, you HAVE to twist and make up stuff to convience yourselves that what a scripture says, it really isn't.
First born in any language on earth means FIRSTBORN a ...[text shortened]... at it says in the simplest way because it blows your ideas out of the water...... Unbelieveable.
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDead on Robbie. They have accepted old, very old paganistic beliefs and are not willing to look beyond them. They seem intelligent enough but unless the heart is willing, Jehovah lets them stay in those beliefs.
I knew it but i dared not believe it and I have been proven wrong, i really thought that i could reason, that if i could get them to think about their beliefs and reason upon them they might come to some kind of understanding, if not a compromise, but it was a pointless exercise trying to reason with people who are to all intents and purposes incapab ...[text shortened]... and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
It seems so simple but yet it can be a wide canyon for them. Very sad but I hope they can see someday soon from asking him for guideance before the door is closed.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by Suzianneit actually says he is the first-born of all creation and you were not asked to comment on what first-born means, what you were actually asked to comment upon was
Do you not know how "prototokos" is defined?
If not, I'd look it up and try to avoid being seen as ignorant.
He is NOT "OF the creation". Try reading the text. He is "FIRSTBORN of the creation". Of course, this is only relevant if you use the correct meaning of "prototokos", the one Paul meant, instead of assuming he meant something he didn't.
OF ALL CREATION
That is PART OF CREATION
but no you could not even do that.
03 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think when they read certian scriptures that conflicts with certian beliefs of theirs like the trinity for example and it's what they "want" to believe for many reasons, like just refusing to agree period with our beliefs because we might just be right on that subject, or because of family pressure or whatever their reasons are, do they really see these scriptures they way they say or is it just satan blinding them that obviously?
it actually says he is the first-born of all creation and you were not asked to comment on what first-born means, what you were actually asked to comment upon was
OF ALL CREATION
That is PART OF CREATION
but no you could not even do that.
For instance the scripture we are taking about where Jesus himself says he is the "first of all creation"...how do they not see that with their eyes and mind and what do they actually see there?
Is it something like "I am not a creation at all but created all things"? It's amazes me how these intelligent people see things written down differently somehow.
I showed Ron 3 different bible versions where it says as clear as a bell that an "angel" spoke to Moses at the burning bush. 3 scriptures but yet he argues against it and says it was not an angel but God himself. How is that possible to be so fooled?????
I'm actually angry that satan exist for obvious reasons but I hate how he has the power to fool so many. But then the bible says he would on a very large scale.