10 Aug 11
Originally posted by RJHindsyes, but you're back to the OP question. why would god need blood to forgive? it's still irrational. still nothing about the story that's remotely logical or good.
You still have time to repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your
Lord and Savior. Then you can be forgiven and cleansed by the
blood of Christ from all wickedness and your faith can be counted
to you as righteousness.
10 Aug 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThe Holy Bible says the life is in the blood and also that there is no
yes, but you're back to the OP question. why would god need blood to forgive? it's still irrational. still nothing about the story that's remotely logical or good.
forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That is the way God saw it.
Who am I to argue with God?
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by RJHindswho indeed. don't worry too much about it. many people are attracted to powerful authority figures without question, even if those figures are completely insane. you can't help yourself, it's a part of human evolution.
The Holy Bible says the life is in the blood and also that there is no
forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That is the way God saw it.
Who am I to argue with God?
it's by the same token that powerful, insane, authority figures such as stalin and mao have become deities worshiped by people in their respective regions.
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by RJHindsYou don't see that as wacky do you ? No amount of conversation could change a mind set like that. The Power of the Blood is a primitive stone age idea that went out with the flat earth movement. The charm of a blood thirsty God is beyond me.
The Holy Bible says the life is in the blood and also that there is no
forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That is the way God saw it.
Who am I to argue with God?
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritFrom Wikipedia:
who indeed. don't worry too much about it. many people are attracted to powerful authority figures without question, even if those figures are completely insane. you can't help yourself, it's a part of human evolution.
it's by the same token that powerful, insane, authority figures such as stalin and mao have become deities worshiped by people in their respective regions.
In Christian teaching, God became incarnate in Jesus Christ (trinitarian view) or sacrificed his first-born son (divine yet distinct from God for non-trinitarians) to accomplish the reconciliation of God and humanity, which had separated itself from God through sin (see the concept of original sin). According to a view that has featured prominently in Western theology since early in the 2nd millennium, God's justice required an atonement for sin from humanity if human beings were to be restored to their place in creation and saved from damnation. However, God knew limited human beings could not make sufficient atonement, for humanity's offense to God was infinite, so God sent his only Son to become the sacrifice of the everlasting covenant. In Christian theology, this sacrifice replaced the insufficient animal sacrifice of the Old Covenant; Christ the "Lamb of God" replaced the lambs' sacrifice of the ancient Korban Todah (the Rite of Thanksgiving), chief of which is the Passover in the Mosaic law.
11 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper Knob=====================================
Here's the thing. This is what you said on page two of this thread (the bold emphasis was added by yourself) -
[quote]One who breaks the law of God can be saved. But as an unreconciled enemy of His law he is cursed. A cursed person is vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked. This is the transgressor of the law of God. So He sent a salvat an i'?!
Do you believe i am 'vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked'?
As an atheist surely i am an 'unreconciled enemy of His law' and therefore cursed?! As as you so eloquently put, twice in fact with bold emphasis the second time, a cursed person is 'vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked'. Now your claiming to be Mr Humble and have no argument if someone wants to 'argue that they are a better person than i'?!
Do you believe i am 'vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked'?
======================================
In that long list of terrible adjectives the phrase "beyond recovery" means no longer opportunity to be recovered, saved.
As long as you have breath you have opportunity to be recovered. So even though you say "I am an Atheist" still you are not "beyond recovery" .
Who knows ? One day you may decide you wish to be saved. Then like every other saved person you will be a former enemy who was reconciled to God.
I am sorry. If you thought I meant a standard athiest is beyond recovery, that certainly was not what I meant at all.
You are not beyond recovery as long as you have opportunity to believe into Christ.
I WOULD NOT FOR A MINUTE THINK ANY LIVING SINNER IS PRESENTLY BEYOND RECOVERY.
You got the wrong impression if you thought I was announcing that you are beyond recovery and cursed. That may have been my error.
Now, to those about to go into eternal punishment, their time of recovery has passed. And to those ones Jesus will say "Depart from Me you cursed ..." (Matt. 25:41)
I gave you the wrong impression if you thought I meant that a living sinner, for whom the opportunity to believe in Christ and be saved, is cursed, ie. beyond recovery.
If that was the case then no one could be saved.
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritPagan religious groups misunderstood the idea of the blood sacrifice as
who indeed. don't worry too much about it. many people are attracted to powerful authority figures without question, even if those figures are completely insane. you can't help yourself, it's a part of human evolution.
it's by the same token that powerful, insane, authority figures such as stalin and mao have become deities worshiped by people in their respective regions.
well.
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by buckkyPagan religious groups misunderstood the idea of the blood sacrifice as
You don't see that as wacky do you ? No amount of conversation could change a mind set like that. The Power of the Blood is a primitive stone age idea that went out with the flat earth movement. The charm of a blood thirsty God is beyond me.
well.
11 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsyou don't have to quote me the christian justification. there are so many absurdities in that passage:
From Wikipedia:
In Christian teaching, God became incarnate in Jesus Christ (trinitarian view) or sacrificed his first-born son (divine yet distinct from God for non-trinitarians) to accomplish the reconciliation of God and humanity, which had separated itself from God through sin (see the concept of original sin). According to a view that has featured pr Korban Todah (the Rite of Thanksgiving), chief of which is the Passover in the Mosaic law.
1. that god had to sacrifice his son to accomplish reconciliation with humanity.
2. that god's justice requires damnation for finite crimes
3. that human beings can't make sufficient atonement
4. that a god could be infinitely offended by human sins
5. that animal sacrifice was ever necessary to appease god
wow, that's a handful, and it hasn't yet mentioned that god's son was actually himself. yes folks, he sacrificed himself to himself to appease himself for the alleged crimes to himself by humanity whose very nature he himself created and knew beforehand that they would offend him.
it's just one absurdity after another... or realize that primitive humanity created this mad god of the old testament and fashioned it after their own primitive biases. now the whole insanity makes sense.
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI am glad that I could help you make sense out of it.
you don't have to quote me the christian justification. there are so many absurdities in that passage:
1. that god had to sacrifice his son to accomplish reconciliation with humanity.
2. that god's justice requires damnation for finite crimes
3. that human beings can't make sufficient atonement
4. that a god could be infinitely offended by human si ...[text shortened]... t and fashioned it after their own primitive biases. now the whole insanity makes sense.
11 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillWhat about the other terrible adjectives ie, vile, worthless and hateful?!
[b]=====================================
As an atheist surely i am an 'unreconciled enemy of His law' and therefore cursed?! As as you so eloquently put, twice in fact with bold emphasis the second time, a cursed person is 'vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery and wicked'. Now your claiming to be Mr Humble and have no argument if someone wants to rsed, ie. beyond recovery.
If that was the case then no one could be saved.[/b]
11 Aug 11
Originally posted by Proper KnobYou misunderstood the purpose of that long list of awful adjectives. Maybe that is my own shortage of clarification.
What about the other terrible adjectives ie, vile, worthless and hateful?!
That list was to address the question of why the punishment of those who will not be saved is so severe. "But WHY would God send people to eternal punishment?" That was the reason I wrote those things.
It seems not to occur to people that a God who loves right, holiness, peace, and goodness would hate transgression, sin, and lawlessness. They seem to expect that God should love everything. They seem not to grasp that what is opposed to His nature would be the object of His judgment.
We need not become a curse because Jesus the Son of God became a curse on our behalf that we would be saved. God's hatred for sin was seen many times in the Old Testament. But it was finally seen in the Son of God bearing under the judgment of God on His cross. The Righteous One became the cursed One on our behalf that we would be saved:
"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf ..." (Gal. 3:13)
On the cross, the One totally clean, pure, holy in His intention, thought, motive, and every action, the One of total obedience had "become a curse on our behalf".
Those dark hours in which the sun was darkened and the earth quaked were the moments in which Christ the Son of God became a curse on our behalf under divine judgment, that we might be saved from "the curse of the law". In this case the curse of the law is the just penalty deserving the chronic transgressors of God's law. That is you and I. That is the religous sinner and the atheist sinner alike.
So " entirely vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery " is what the only begotten Son became on our behalf on His cross, that we sinners could be redeemed from the curse of the law which we deserve.
Back to the OP "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ..."
He GAVE up His Son to beat the judgment that was too severe for the sinner to bear. He redeemed the believers out of the curse of the law having become a curse on their behalf.
He drank the cup of wrath that we might drink the cup of blessing. Whoever believes in Jesus the Son of God has eternal life.
You called me "Mr. Humble". When you first become a Christian, you have a little light on what you are. As the time goes on and the light of revelation encreases over the years you realize more and more what is really in you. Your sense of His goodness and your own vileness deepens and encreases.
I realize that in myself I am only good for the lake of fire. If God were to send me there, I would realize that this is what I deserve. But God so loved the world that He gave His Son. Everyone who believes into Him has eternal life and will not come into judgment. That believer's judgment is passed. It occured on the cross when God gave His only begotten Son to become a curse on our behalf that we might be saved.
This scheme did not come out of any human imagination. This was the plan instituted by God. One died for all that through joining to Him, substitution could take place.
My way of preaching and explanation is not perfect. I would not wait for a perfect explainer to come along. I would instead pray about what I read as others try to convey the gospel message to you.
"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." (Gal. 3:13)
We have to see WHO is was who was crucified there and what it means that He bore the penalty of sin for the whole world, that we might receive justification, forgiveness and the gift of eternal life.