26 Dec 06
Originally posted by fogwalkerMissing the point. If everything is pre-destined by God, then irrespective of what you think, you can't make any other choice but the one you will.
everyone has a conscience and it is called free will conscience means with knowledge,and with this knowledge you are able to make choices arent you?you know right from wrong dont you?,this is called free will, if we didnt have free will we wouldnt be able to make choices in life about anything,so if you are saying you dont have a free will then you must not exsist,this topic dont exsist.. ..
27 Dec 06
Originally posted by fogwalkerBut how do you know that the choice you think you make are the choices YOU made?
everyone has a conscience and it is called free will conscience means with knowledge,and with this knowledge you are able to make choices arent you?you know right from wrong dont you?,this is called free will, if we didnt have free will we wouldnt be able to make choices in life about anything,so if you are saying you dont have a free will then you must not exsist,this topic dont exsist.. ..
One could argue that even if God did not exist and predestine us to a certain path, still our every experience and decision we make influences the decisions after that, thus creating an illusion of free will. I'll quote a member from another board I'm on to example this, i think:
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Personally I do not believe there is free will. There is however the illusion of free will that spawns from the nature of the universe ie the time/change component. As mentioned here by others, cause and effect is something that drives our decisions but you must also keep in mind that this cause and effect is going on inside the physical brain also which in turn drives our decisions. If you look at the human mind and its decision making capabilities as a state machine the decisions we make are already decided by the state of the brain at any particular time we choose to make a decision. If we were to roll-back time (and not know the outcomes and have everything in the exact same state) would anyone make any different decisions?, IMO no, everything would unravel exactly as it has.
Sure, we can say, hey I can make a decision (therefore implying free will) to either make something to eat now or in 5 minutes but you will always only make one decision - roll back time and you will always make the same decision because the elements upon which you have made that decision will remain the same.
To me, history has only happened one way hence there is no way it could have happened any other way. Sure you can say Napoleon could have slipped on a bannana somewhere on his travels, knocked his head and never conquered so and so because of some brain damage as a result of the fall etc. BUT saying it or thinking it is the illusion of free will, the fact that it has not happened that way takes away from the free will. Similarly for any decisions we make, the thought that we have ample choices is the illusion of free will - there is always only one choice we make and therefore only one choice we have! And that goes for anything in the future. The future will only unravel one way.
Now don't get me wrong, I do not support the 'the future is written so I am not to blame for what happens' view. We are actors on a stage that has been set, the plot has been played out - and like actors we are responsible for our acting. We are quite welcome to sit and rot away thinking that is what was meant to happen (destiny) but if that happens that is what was played out originally and the actor is still responsible for the acting.
Weird, perhaps, but that's the way I see it.
*end quote*
The brain is a machine, albeit a very complex one, and as such is programmed to certain actions depending on how the hardware is faring at a particular time . Only one action can be possible because that's the action that was made.
Though in this case, there is still no such thing as destiny, which is quite separate to free will, somehow.
Just a few thoughts to consider 🙂
28 Dec 06
There is free will!
If I want to play chess, I play chess. If I don't want to, I won't.
Where in that statement do I not have free will?
Will someone please explain to me why I don't have the decision to play chess or not?
What would a creator have to truly gain for a bunch of robots who think they have free will?
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by eagleeye222001Question. Do you believe God is omniscient?
There is free will!
If I want to play chess, I play chess. If I don't want to, I won't.
Where in that statement do I not have free will?
Will someone please explain to me why I don't have the decision to play chess or not?
What would a creator have to truly gain for a bunch of robots who think they have free will?
Question. Do you believe God created the universe?
If the answer to both these questions is "yes", then everything that WOULD happen in the universe was known to God for all eternity, even before the creation, before you even knew you'd do it. But you HAD to do it. God couldn't be wrong. God knows everything that WILL happen in the universe, and it can't happen any other way. Thus, your "free will" is little more than an illusion, because you can make no other choice than the one God knows you'll make.
28 Dec 06
4 edits
Originally posted by scottishinnzIn my mind, just because God is all knowing and knows what decisions we will make does not mean that he has CHOSEN to FORCE us act in a certain way. After all, he is also an all powerful God. Only an all powerful God could find a way to know what we will choose without taking away our ability to choose to do those things in order to make sure our free will remains intact.
Question. Do you believe God is omniscient?
Question. Do you believe God created the universe?
If the answer to both these questions is "yes", then everything that WOULD happen in the universe was known to God for all eternity, even before the creation, before you even knew you'd do it. But you HAD to do it. God couldn't be wrong. God knows e an an illusion, because you can make no other choice than the one God knows you'll make.
To not have free will would mean that we are in no way responsible for our actions. I know of many people who feel this way and what you are then left with is a society that is largely unaccountable for their actions. I say that such a society is a danger to us all, therefore, if you all insist on it being an illusion I say embrace the illusion. I don't think the concept of God in any way changes the view that we have no free will. After all, we have all seen people blame their past for present day poor behavoir. Granted, your past infuences your current behavoir, however, you are then negating how the indiviudal chooses to process what has happened to them in the past and how to deal with such issues. For example, a mass murderer may blame his abusive father for his actions. However, not all people who have had a similar background end up becoming a mass murderer. I think life has less to do with the hand we are dealt and more to do with what we choose to do with the hand we are dealt. A scripture comes to mind that says something to the effect that to whom much is given, much is expected.
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzMy answer to both those questions is yes.
Question. Do you believe God is omniscient?
Question. Do you believe God created the universe?
If the answer to both these questions is "yes", then everything that WOULD happen in the universe was known to God for all eternity, even before the creation, before you even knew you'd do it. But you HAD to do it. God couldn't be wrong. God knows e ...[text shortened]... an an illusion, because you can make no other choice than the one God knows you'll make.
God is so powerful that He knows what decisions we will make.
This does not mean that we don't have free will. When we make a decision we think and act. How can you decide that the decision you make is not your decision. It is your decision; it is just that God knows what you will decide. There is the free will choice.
If God knows what decision we will make that is only an indication of his power.
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by eagleeye222001Then the decision was pre-ordained. You couldn't have decided anything other than that which God knew you would. He knew it from day dot. He (apparently) created the universe and everything in it, including the decision that you'd make.
My answer to both those questions is yes.
God is so powerful that He knows what decisions we will make.
This does not mean that we don't have free will. When we make a decision we think and act. How can you decide that the decision you make is not your decision. It is your decision; it is just that God knows what you will decide. There is th ...[text shortened]... ill choice.
If God knows what decision we will make that is only an indication of his power.
02 Jan 07
Originally posted by whodeyIt's not about force - it's about pre-destination. If God knows your choice before you make it, then ultimately you have no choice - there is nothing else you could choose.
In my mind, just because God is all knowing and knows what decisions we will make does not mean that he has CHOSEN to FORCE us act in a certain way. After all, he is also an all powerful God. Only an all powerful God could find a way to know what we will choose without taking away our ability to choose to do those things in order to make sure our free will remains intact.