free will

Originally posted by chronicman
Dose the bible say God has the power to view our lives future past and present.

Jesus told Judas that he would betray him. Not only that, it was prophesied hundreds of years prior. Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times as the rooster crowed three times. Peter then vehemently denied he would ever do so. God sees what we will do wheter or not we can see ourselves doing it.

Originally posted by whodey
Jesus told Judas that he would betray him. Not only that, it was prophesied hundreds of years prior. Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times as the rooster crowed three times. Peter then vehemently denied he would ever do so. God sees what we will do wheter or not we can see ourselves doing it.

Well then, neither of these people had free will then - they HAD to make those decisions. Whether or not they knew at the time that those were the decisions that they'd make, they were pre-ordained, and neither Peter nor Judas could have made any other decision.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I still don't get why they need to exist as any more than as a potentiality. If they only potentially exist and not actually exist then God only needs to be present in this universe with all it's potentiality. If a man writes a play and then leaves certain parts of it open to add libbing by the actors why does he need to stray from his seat to another ...[text shortened]... l exist whereas the other potential plays will not happen. He doesn't have to leave his seat.

Well, if God is omnipresent he's equally present in the past, present and future. If the future is set in stone then he only need be present in that one future. If the future is variable, he must be equally present in every possible future.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I understand now . However, I do not accept that because God knows what you will do tomorrow it therefore means that you are pre- determined to do this. Your future is still uncertain. God does not know what you will do until you have done it but because he can move around in time he can just nip off into the future and find out what you did as it we ...[text shortened]... the future is set. It 's quirk of his eternal nature but it does not impinge on your free will.

Your argument doesn't make sense. If he knows what you'll do in the future because he's been there (or if you're an omnipresent man, he is there), then you MUST make the decisions that'ss realise that future - there is really nothing else you can do - no other set of decisions are possible, whether you know it or not.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I still don't get why they need to exist as any more than as a potentiality.
It doesn't really. BUT. If we accept free will, then we accept that our future is uncertain. And if we say that there is only one future, then God cannot be omniscient since then our future would be certain and our understanding of free will could not occur, Thus, for God t ...[text shortened]... ese realities) cannot be known; however there would exist multiples of you in other realities.[/b]

In which case, God wouldn't know the decision that we WILL make (unless, of course, we make ALL the decisions in parallel universes), and isn't omniscient.

Originally posted by Churlant
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Considering the exponential increase in scientific knowledge, it is extremely arrogant to assume we will not eventually have such capabilities.
The arrogance here lies with the ones who presume that such things are humanly possible. How long ago was it that we figured out pi? Germs? Our advancements are en at I shall do with myself.

Such stunning oratorical technique is unnerving.

-JC[/b]

1. Based on your own statements. "Limited free will" is a contradiction to "free will". We have one, or we have the other. Perhaps it is time to stop using term number two completely.
When I say that man's free will is limited, I am referring to the choices available to him, not the decisions themselves. Man is not limited with respect to how he will choose, only what he can choose.

2. Not really.
No, really. You say there is no such thing as free will, yet persist in asserting the same.

3. Yes, well now that you've labelled my assertions as "silly" for the second time, I am somehow unsure of what I shall do with myself.
You're a bright guy: I'm certain you'll figure something out.

Such stunning oratorical technique is unnerving.
That's what the voices in my head are always saying, too.

Originally posted by Churlant
God is an independent viewer. Just because God knows what you will do does not mean you performed that particular action with anything but your own free will.

The real question is this:

If [b]YOU knew what will happen on a future date, would you be capable of changing that outcome?

If yes, free will remains intact. If not, free will is not truly "free".

-JC[/b]

But here's the interesting question - could God change he future after he has predetermined it?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But here's the interesting question - could God change he future after he has predetermined it?

The future has not been predetermined, only pre-seen.

Originally posted by Churlant
If you asked God what you would be doing at 10am tomorrow, and He told you "arriving at your office", you now have the option to change your mind.

You can call out, or come in early, or late. As long as your schedule is still within your control, free will exists.

But omniscience dies.... :'(

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The future has not been predetermined, only pre-seen.

But could he alter it. Doing so would make him wrong, which he cannot be.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH

When I say that man's free will is limited, I am referring to the choices available to him, not the decisions themselves. Man is not limited with respect to how he will choose, only what he can choose.

Of course that depends on the choice. Can a man create a galaxy? Nope. That's the easy question to which you have an easy answer.

You choose not to answer my own questions, which is fine - but please try not to invent new ones as if they are the same thing.

The bottom line: if a man knows his future, and yet cannot alter it, "free will" does not exist. Whether this is applied to Biblical prophesy or not, the end result remains the same.

-JC

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But here's the interesting question - could God change he future after he has predetermined it?

Yes. Assuming God is omnipotent, of course.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
Yes. Assuming God is omnipotent, of course.

-JC

But then omniscience dies, for God would have been wrong to think that the future would have been anything else... :'(

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But then omniscience dies, for God would have been wrong to think that the future would have been anything else... :'(

Well, first off God doesn't "think" - God "knows".

The prospect seems paradoxical, I'll admit. Eventually you must come to the conclusion that God knows what the future will be, whether it is somehow altered or not.

This runs along the lines of "If God can do anything, can He create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it?"

The answer is that God may create that stone and He will not be able to lift it... until He decides to do so.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
The answer is that God may create that stone and He will not be able to lift it... until He decides to do so.

In which case God fails both in creating a stone so heavy he cannot lift it, and in not lifting it.