02 May 10
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHSomehow you still do not get it, despite bbarr's explaining it to you quite clearly. Oh well...
[b]Please, try to be clear.
Do you mean try harder or just try in the first place?
I am not rejecting any notion of God. I am rejecting the claim that a particular concept 'God' correctly applies to anything actual. I am not responding to any notion. I am responding to the claim that 'God' has an actual referent.
I think you may be conf mply irrelevant to my life and what is of value.[/b]
Sadly, so do most Christians.[/b]
02 May 10
Originally posted by LemonJelloI'll try in simpler terms:
Somehow you still do not get it, despite bbarr's explaining it to you quite clearly. Oh well...
@FreakyKBH: Take the question 'Do you believe in God?'
I temporarily replace 'god' with 'pink, fridge-inhabiting unicorn'. I consider the concept of pink, fridge-inhabiting unicorns and form beliefs about that concept. I assume that you can hold these concepts and beliefs too, since like me, you are an aunicornist. We agree there is no unicorn, only the concept of the unicorn. We form beliefs (believe) in the concept, but not in the existence of what that concept concerns.
Belief in the concept is not belief in that to which the concept refers.
Unless you somehow believe in the existence of pink unicorns which live in your fridge? Atheism is the same. Atheits can hold beliefs about the concept of god without placing any belief on the existence of what that concept concerns.
03 May 10
Originally posted by rwingettI've read that there's evidence for burial in Homo heidelbergensis.
Your position is completely false. Modern humans, Homo sapiens, have been around for about 200,000 years. The earliest evidence we have for religious belief in humans is with intentional burials of the dead, the earliest examples of which date to 80,000 to 100,000 years ago.
03 May 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadBelief in an afterlife is a part of religion, yes.
Does burial constitute religious belief? Does belief in an afterlife constitute religious belief?
Atheists bury their dead.
Elephants I believe show recognition of dead relatives. If they started burying them, would we call them religious?
Atheists bury the dead out of tradition, this tradition comes from religion.
If elephants are religious, you have to ask them.
03 May 10
Originally posted by rwingettSpeculation turns around the 'pit of bones' in Atapuerca, Spain. Were those bones treated with respect? Was that hand-axe a ritual offering?
Do you have a source on that?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/first_europeans1.shtml
http://humanorigins.si.edu/resources/whats-hot/mystery-pit-bones-atapuerca-spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atapuerca
03 May 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasBut is such a belief necessarily religious? Is all superstition religion?
Belief in an afterlife is a part of religion, yes.
If I believed in fairies would I be religious?
If I didn't like to walk under ladders would I be religious?
Atheists bury the dead out of tradition, this tradition comes from religion.
Not necessarily. If anything, those who have a belief in the afterlife have far less reason for respecting the bodies of those who have died.
03 May 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasThats interesting. Do you have any actual examples? I cant think of anyone who fits the description of "fundamental atheist". Sure there are atheists who could be called fundamentalist with respect to particular ideologies (some communists for example), but I don't think I know of any who do so with respect to atheism.
I don't deny that there is also a atheistic fundamentalism that has the same qualities as every kind of fundamentalism. Fundamentlists tend to give their individual thinking over to authorities.
03 May 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou surely know one or two who doesn't think for themselves, but rely on some authority that they follow blindly?
Thats interesting. Do you have any actual examples? I cant think of anyone who fits the description of "fundamental atheist". Sure there are atheists who could be called fundamentalist with respect to particular ideologies (some communists for example), but I don't think I know of any who do so with respect to atheism.
03 May 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo I don't, which is why I asked. I think all atheists I know came to their position either by default ie they didn't form theistic beliefs in the first place or came to it by their own reasoning. I do not think any atheists I know have any specific atheist beliefs as such and thus have nothing to rely on authorities for.
You surely know one or two who doesn't think for themselves, but rely on some authority that they follow blindly?
03 May 10
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Originally posted by twhiteheadYou've never met a born again Delusionist?
No I don't, which is why I asked. I think all atheists I know came to their position either by default ie they didn't form theistic beliefs in the first place or came to it by their own reasoning. I do not think any atheists I know have any specific atheist beliefs as such and thus have nothing to rely on authorities for.
I've met a few people online or in the flesh whose atheism goes no further than an enthusiastic and wholly uncritical gobbling of The God Delusion. What they had in common, apart from having read the same book, was a tendency to abuse anyone who dared point out the shortcomings of that foundational text. One of them proudly called himself a 'militant atheist' and couldn't understand why I laughed at him ...
I think the 'messianic' psychological type will always find a suitable context to manifest in -- it's not bound to religion specifically.
03 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageInteresting. I have never met a Delusionist or 'militant atheist', online or otherwise.
You've never met a born again Delusionist?
I've met a few people online or in the flesh whose atheism goes no further than an enthusiastic and wholly uncritical gobbling of The God Delusion. What they had in common, apart from having read the same book, was a tendency to abuse anyone who dared point out the shortcomings of that foundational t ...[text shortened]... lways find a suitable context to manifest in -- it's not bound to religion specifically.
There are a few atheists on this site who quite readily tell lies or talk nonsense about theism, but I don't think they do so because of some authority they are blindly following.
03 May 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadA friend of mine, a true atheist, don't listen at any others view if they don't coincide with his views. He have no line of arguments, he just pushes his opinion on others, when he cannot convince others he calls them stupid. He is an atheist fundamentalist.
No I don't, which is why I asked. I think all atheists I know came to their position either by default ie they didn't form theistic beliefs in the first place or came to it by their own reasoning. I do not think any atheists I know have any specific atheist beliefs as such and thus have nothing to rely on authorities for.
Then I have other atheist friends that listen at others, respects others views, discuss with them on equal terms. They are not atheistic fundamentalists but they are helthy in their opinions.
In this organisation, www.humanisterna.se, there are a lot of atheists fundamentalists. Their fancy homepage tells about them, but when you discuss with them, many of them shows a very prominent atheistic fundamentalism.
03 May 10
Originally posted by StarrmanThe simplicity of the terms is not at issue.
I'll try in simpler terms:
@FreakyKBH: Take the question 'Do you believe in God?'
I temporarily replace 'god' with 'pink, fridge-inhabiting unicorn'. I consider the concept of pink, fridge-inhabiting unicorns and form beliefs about that concept. I assume that you can hold these concepts and beliefs too, since like me, you are an aunicornist. We agr ...[text shortened]... concept of god without placing any belief on the existence of what that concept concerns.
To my knowledge, there aren't any people who identify themselves as aunicornists, despite the fact that no one believes they actually exist. You'd think the entire world would be classified as members of this group, but this isn't the case. Why? Because unicornism is not a default position of man. Belief in deity is, however. Atheism is a reaction to that default position, regardless of whatever that deity entails.