Go on the record ToOne!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Okay, I'll rephrase the question:
Who are you to judge homosexuals (or anyone else) as being unfit to be members of your church because they sin when you yourselves sin and /or allow people with other sins?

Your position of "spiritual and moral cleanliness" isn't so clean if you continue to sin, is it?

You're simply a bigot and hypocrite.

what is it about the scriptures condemning homosexuality that you do not understand? You can rephrase it, roll it up, cover it with chocolate and eat it for all the difference it makes. They themselves have taken a stance contrary to the revealed word of God and thus the condemn themselves. You personal attacks are nothing more than a poorly understood expression of ignorance in this regard.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it about the scriptures condemning homosexuality that you do not understand? You can rephrase it, roll it up, cover it with chocolate and eat it for all the difference it makes. They themselves have taken a stance contrary to the revealed word of God and thus the condemn themselves. You personal attacks are nothing more than a poorly understood expression of ignorance in this regard.

What is it about your own sins and the sins of others that you allow that you do not understand? What is it about the hypocrisy of such a position that you do not understand? What is it about the teachings of Jesus against hypocrisy that you do not understand?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What is it about your own sins and the sins of others that you allow that you do not understand? What is it about the hypocrisy of such a position that you do not understand? What is it about the teachings of Jesus against hypocrisy that you do not understand?

you see, if i commit a sin, i repent, i am forgiven. those who wilfully practice sin, trample on Christ sacrifice again and again and treat it as having no worth. Here i let the apostle Paul comfort you,

(Hebrews 10:29) . . .Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?

(Hebrews 10:26) . . .For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left. . .

comforting, isn't it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you see, if i commit a sin, i repent, i am forgiven. those who wilfully practice sin, trample on Christ sacrifice again and again and treat it as having no worth. Here i let the apostle Paul comfort you,

(Hebrews 10:29) . . .Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God a ...[text shortened]... edge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left. . .

comforting, isn't it.

And you willfully and intentionally remain a bigot and hypocrite....

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
And you willfully and intentionally remain a bigot and hypocrite....

kissy kissy!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
As best as I can recall, you started lying around the time that you declared that it was your intention to "discredit" me. Which was also around the time that you started stalking me also. Evidently you have placed no bounds on what you are willing to do to fulfill your intention. You just can't seem to live with the fact that my position is fully suppor ...[text shortened]... of substance to show then show it. If not, then stop this ridiculous vendetta.

If you have something of substance to show then show it. If not, then stop this ridiculous vendetta.
----------ToOne-----------------

Substance! - that would be great!

But is such a debate possible with you? We shall see.

I have no objection to anyone expressing their beliefs and no expectation that they will be the same as mine. What I do object to is playing with loaded dice that are loaded in your favour.

What this means in practice is that you must accept that ALL of Jesus's teachings are as valid as any other and that it's not reasonable to isolate certain verses out of context. Can we at least agree on that?

Many here are trying to have a reasonable debate with you using scripture and reasoned logic but it has just fallen on stony ground because you won't subject yourself to such a process.

"Vendetta" is your conception. I told you clearly from the start that if you distort the teachings of Jesus and selectively use scripture then I would stand against you. If you went back and re-read my posts over a period of time you would see it contained a lot of substance and scriptural references.

However , you seem to want to make a fist of it so where would you like to start? Is the "...not everyone who calls me Lord Lord" passage where you would like to begin?

But before we start - do you or do you not agree that ALL of Jesus' teachings and sayings should be taken into account when considering his message?

It's a straight , plain and simple question - and it should present no problem for you to answer.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Did you get past the first sentence?

I'll rephrase it in case you were unable to comprehend my prior post. This is the spirituality forum. People express their views on spiritual matters. Sometimes people are going to express views on spiritual matters that don't coincide with your own. They are not "stalking your beliefs". They are using the forum as eachings that support my position. Maybe we can then work on reconciling them together.

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If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked the Earth and taught something akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior. With this in mind and because of my patience and immense compassion for your failings, everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; even those who do not do the will of my Father who is in heaven."
----------ToOne--------------------------

To be honest I missed this post of yours the first time. I think it was at the bottom of the page. You will no doubt see this as evasion rather than an honest mistake - but hey - that's up to you.

The phrase "not everyone" is interesting don't you think? What does it imply? It implies that "some" will and "some " won't. Yes?

Therefore , it becomes crucial to define what "doing the will of the Father" actually means. In your mind it's impossible to do the "will of the Father" if you are flawed and still subject to some sinful behaviours . In my mind it is quite possible to conceive of someone following Jesus who is not perfect , still makes mistakes and has some sin to confess. Infact , I have seen it with my own eyes , whereas you cannot provide a living example of your theory.

The onus is then on you to prove that Jesus felt that anyone who still had some problems with sin or was not perfect in love could not do his Father's will.

Does such evidence exist? It does not.

Infact the evidence of the disciples who did follow him was that they were flawed and not perfected (especially Peter - remember Jesus saying get behind me Satan?)

So if Peter (who Jesus made the rock of his church) was not perfected or free of sin was accepted in compassion by Jesus as a follower then what logically flows from this ? (not that you care)

So , it seems reasonable to look at what Jesus DID as well as what he said. If he really did feel the way you say he did about flawed humans still struggling with sin he should of told Peter where to go. He did not.

Jesus's actions regarding his death , how he treated his followers , how he taught them to pray , what he said to the thief on the cross , all point to supporting the gospel of grace rather than the gospel of judgement.

As it stands your theory on Jesus is irrelevant and pointless brecause no-one can live it anyway. You cannot supply an example of anyone living or dead who can do as Jesus asked.

Even if you are right about Jesus you are still wrong because it's a pratically useless theory of no relevance to anyone except some spiritual superman.

That's your achilles heel and that's why we want to know if you are sinless yourself , becasue we know for certain that you can't be.

Your theory can never be more than that - a theory.

Originally posted by knightmeister
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If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked the Earth and taught something akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapse hat you can't be.

Your theory can never be more than that - a theory.

Once again:

The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.

If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked the Earth and taught something akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior. With this in mind and because of my patience and immense compassion for your failings, everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; even those who do not do the will of my Father who is in heaven."

This is your chance to show how your understanding of Jesus is fully supported by His teachings. After you've posted them all, I can repost the passages of His teachings that support my position. Maybe we can then work on reconciling them together.

It's really simple, KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Once again:

[quote][b]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.

If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked t ...[text shortened]... KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above.[/b]

"I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior. With this in mind and because of my patience and immense compassion for your failings, everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; even those who do not do the will of my Father who is in heaven."
----------ToOne---------------

This is a clever trap and misrepresentation.

The phrase "even those who do not do the will of my Father" and the phrase " everyone who says to me" are problematic.

Neither myself , Jaywill , Josephw or Ephin et al have ever argued that there should be a separation between behaviour and faith and St Paul asserts the same principle very strongly (although for some reason you seem to ignore this). Nor has anyone suggested that someone who mindlessly mouths the words "Lord Lord" is magically saved.

The issus here is defining what is meant by the "will of my Father". Until you have done that then no progress is possible.

I would define it as love , compassion , humility and forgiveness amongst other qualities. It was clearly Jesus's command that we love each other (as we love ourselves) , commit to non violence and forgive each others trespasses. So to do God's will is to further his kingdom of peace and love and care for each other in relationships and communities. Ie - "love one another as I have loved you".

How would you define it?

I fail to see how not being 100% perfected or not being totally sinless would prevent a person from loving others and making the world a better place. Infact the evidence around us is that those who think they are somehow "perfected" lack humility and end up causing more damage than good out of their own arrogance.

Furthermore , it makes no sense for anyone to wait until they are free of sin and perfected before they start trying to love and trying to bring peace and compassion to our broken world. The evidence is in the Gospels with the
rag-taggle bunch of unperfected individuals that Jesus gathered around him and whom he chose to help further his kingdom. They were not perfected. So unless you think that Jesus's closest band of followers were condemned you have got a problem.

It seems to me that you cannot get your head around how flawed , unperfected human beings can actually be able to do the will of the Father or help bring justice and peace to the world. And yet this was exactly what Jesus was doing with his disciples and what they were trying to do (sometimes failing)

So would you agree that its what happens in the heart that's important , not whether someone is perfected and flawless?

Is not a flawed person who is trying to be perfect in love and compassion greatly favoured by God? (despite his mistakes)

It seems to me that this idea is at least workable and practical - whereas your theory has to date no practical application or examples (including yourself)

I have to believe that Jesus would give us a message that is workable so even for that reason alone (there are many others) I would have to have serious doubts about your ideas. They just can't be practiced. No-one can live them and I'm still waiting for you to evidence this.

Even if you were to be proved right it would be of no value to anyone because it's an irrelevant theory for the world we actually live in. It's like discussing how many angels you can get on a pinhead.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Once again:

[quote][b]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.

If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked t ...[text shortened]... KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above.[/b]

Hopefully the third times the charm:

Once again:

[quote]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.

If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked the Earth and taught something akin to, "I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior. With this in mind and because of my patience and immense compassion for your failings, everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; even those who do not do the will of my Father who is in heaven."

This is your chance to show how your understanding of Jesus is fully supported by His teachings. After you've posted them all, I can repost the passages of His teachings that support my position. Maybe we can then work on reconciling them together.

It's really simple, KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above. [/quote]

Originally posted by knightmeister
"I have spoken at length as to what is and what is not righteous. However, this is impossible to achieve. You are all flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behavior. With this in mind and because of my patience and immense compassion for your failings, everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; even those who do not ...[text shortened]... live in. It's like discussing how many angels you can get on a pinhead.

Why does it bother you so much what TofO thinks?

Maybe i've missed something, but what's the big deal?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Once again:

[quote][b]The fact is that no human being is perfect and all are flawed and subject to lapses and sinful behaviour. The real Jesus is much more patient with us than this and has immense compassion for our failings.

If this was so important to the teachings of Jesus, you should have no problem producing passages from when He walked t ...[text shortened]... KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above.[/b]

It's really simple, KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above.
------------------ToOne--------------------------

As I told you , it's not possible to find passages that support a straw man argument that misrepresents my position.

In any case you cannot find explicit passages that support your position. You think certain passages say what they say because you interpret them that way. That's your right to do that. The problem is you see your position as self evident and others positions as "interpretations" without seeing any need to justify why or expose yourself to any proper reasoning.

I pointed out the problem with your question and the problem was that it used poorly described terms which you cannot clarify specifically.

You do not say how you define "sin"
You do not say how you define "will of the Father"
You do not define "iniquity" or whether it is different from "sin"
You make no distinction between wilful and involuntary sin
You do not really say what "not everyone" means in the context of the passage.

The imaginary passage you describe Jesus as saying is not an accurate representation of my position. Would you like me to provide my own idea for you so that you know what real Christianity actually is?

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's really simple, KM.

You made the assertions in BOLD above. So show the passages as I stipulated above.
------------------ToOne--------------------------

As I told you , it's not possible to find passages that support a straw man argument that misrepresents my position.

In any case you cannot find explicit passages that support your posi ...[text shortened]... provide my own idea for you so that you know what real Christianity actually is?

Try reading my post again. Instead of picking out a sentence or two (which is your favorite method of evasion), how about addressing the post as a whole?

If you pay attention, you'll notice that it is asking you to back YOUR assertions.

You'll notice that it says "akin". Maybe you should look the word up in a dictionary.

You'll notice that it doesn't even mention the word "iniquity", yet you complain that I don't define it.

You'll notice that the only mention of "sin" is in the word "sinful" which is part of a phrase taken from YOUR assertions, yet you complain that I don't define it.

You'll notice that about a third of the text in the "example" passage is text taken directly from YOUR assertions.

So, instead of continuing to try to find ways to avoid it, produce the passages. Thus far, I don't think you've cited a single verse no less a passage.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Try reading my post again. Instead of picking out a sentence or two (which is your favorite method of evasion), how about addressing the post as a whole?

If you pay attention, you'll notice that it is asking you to back YOUR assertions.

You'll notice that it says "akin". Maybe you should look the word up in a dictionary.

You'll notice that it do ...[text shortened]... ages. Thus far, I don't think you've cited a single verse no less a passage.

Before we proceed , may I ask whether I am permitted to use examples of how Jesus acted and what he did as well as what he said?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
And you willfully and intentionally remain a bigot and hypocrite....

And you willfully and intentionally remain a bigot and hypocrite....
----------ToONE----------------------------------

Which may or may not be true , however.....

...........you wilfully come on a thread called "go on the record ToOne" and intentionally do NOT go on the record about your own sin or own beliefs and still see fit to talk about the sins of others.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"